A pattern in last 4 books

[wardenferry419]

 My mind wandered onto the fact that 3 of the last 4 books involved either the sacrificing and/or the saving of daughters. 4 out of 4 if you count Colin Murphy encouraging Harry to return to the world to help ensure Karrin Murphy's safety. Is this something significant?

[khadgar4606]

mab and meave, harry and maggie, colin murphy and karrin murphy so who are the fourt pair mate? and whats the theory in your mind

[wardenferry419]

Nico and his daughter in the last book. Not so much a theory, just noticing a pattern and wondering what it means.

[Kindler]

There's also the accidental semi-sacrifice of Molly's stability (and sanity) due to Harry's actions—he kind of chose his biological daughter over his apprentice, sort-of-surrogate daughter. We saw that play out in Ghost Story.

Sarissa and Molly were also, in a sense, sacrificed to become the Ladies. They've now rejected mortality, and will eventually lose their personalities.

Good catch. Might be nothing, but patterns are patterns.

EDIT: Also, Molly's sacrifice to become the Lady indirectly saved Harry's other daughter, Bonnie!

[wardenferry419]

Yeah, I thought of that too. But, the stronger connection is the parent/child one.

[jonas]

Nico and his daughter in the last book. Not so much a theory, just noticing a pattern and wondering what it means.

Here's a pattern i'm not surprise at. Nic and Harry make basically the complete opposite of choices, where their daughter's are concerned in this instance.

[wardenferry419]

Mab was more reluctant to kill Maeve than Nico was to killing Deirdre. Deirdre was a more devoted daughter than Maeve was.

[Cozarkian]

Mab was more reluctant to kill Maeve than Nico was to killing Deirdre. Deirdre was a more devoted daughter than Maeve was.

Interesting. Is the sacrifices one makes for one's daughter (and sons?) an indicator of how good a person is in the DV? From best to worst:

Harry - Willing to burn the world to save his daughter.
Charity - Risks her own life to storm Arctis Tor to save her daughter.
Maggie Le Fey - Makes provisions to provide for her children after she is gone.
Ebenezer - Verdict is still out, but likely not much worse that unintentionally making some bad parenting decisions.
Mab - Asks to have her daughter killed (and ultimately assists with it happening) but tries to save her daughter first.
Titania - Refuses to rat out her daughter even though it will lead to a Faerie apocalypse, and holds an eternal grudge against her daughter's killer despite that the death was necessary.
Duke & Arianna Ortega - Go to war to avenge her death, but only after steering her toward events that lead to her death (am I wrong that Bianca's creator was the Ortegas?).
Victor Sells - Neglects his children in a quest for power.
Papa Raith - Down right awful to his daughters AND his sons.
Nicodemus - Kills his daughter for self-serving reasons, also much of what Lord Raith does.

Additions? Disagreements?

[jonas]

Yea, I disagree, Victor was starting to look at his kids funny too according to his wife. Thinking of sacrificing them for power.

[wardenferry419]

I would have to say that covers the spectrum well. While Victor was leaning towards Lord Raith level actions or worse; Harry didn't give him a chance. At most I might swap Eb and Maggie Sr. Eb didn't make a tough situation for Maggie like the ones she made for Harry and Thomas. Granted she made some corrections that happened post-mortem. As far as it representing goodness of character; I have a conclusion that I think better represents the situation. I think that spectrum represents personal beliefs of family value vs. world value. I may be wrong.

[Ananda]

Interesting. Is the sacrifices one makes for one's daughter (and sons?) an indicator of how good a person is in the DV? From best to worst:

Harry - Willing to burn the world to save his daughter.
Nicodemus - Kills his daughter for self-serving reasons, also much of what Lord Raith does.

Additions? Disagreements?

I think the people (and their children) in the world that Dresden was willing to burn might disagree on him being the role model for how to behave. That’s called selfishness and reckless disregard for other people and beings. 

Nic and Deirdre said over and over that they are trying to save the universe. I put Deirdre’s sacrifice at the top of the list. Dying for the universe; she’d be a messiah figure in a religious mythos.
And, don’t forget her, Deirdre is a grown woman making her own choices. She is not secondary to Nic in this scenario. She is the primary figure. That Nic would help her in this terrible and selfless decision shows that he, also, is acting in a selfless way to benefit everything in the universe.
Deirdre is a hero.

[wardenferry419]

In my most polite opinion, I will have to disagree with you on a couple of points.
1. Each individual has some people that are more important to that individual than others. For me, I call it my personal circle of concern. Inside that circle are people that I value more than everybody outside that circle. Many times I have thought that I value those people inside the circle more than myself. If given a choice between saving my wife or son over someone I don't know or never met; well, that is an easy choice. It is not a reckless disregard; it is a calculated disregard.
2. Deirdre died believing her sacrifice had a higher purpose. Good intentions but not from a good person and certainly not a hero. We have seen Deirdre gleefully kill others not out of a dire necessity, but, because she simply wanted to kill that person. Compare Harry's fight with Asher with Deirdre's fight with the churchmice on the boat in DM. Still see her as a hero?

[Ananda]

In my most polite opinion, I will have to disagree with you on a couple of points.
1. Each individual has some people that are more important to that individual than others. For me, I call it my personal circle of concern. Inside that circle are people that I value more than everybody outside that circle. Many times I have thought that I value those people inside the circle more than myself. If given a choice between saving my wife or son over someone I don't know or never met; well, that is an easy choice. It is not a reckless disregard; it is a calculated disregard.
2. Deirdre died believing her sacrifice had a higher purpose. Good intentions but not from a good person and certainly not a hero. We have seen Deirdre gleefully kill others not out of a dire necessity, but, because she simply wanted to kill that person. Compare Harry's fight with Asher with Deirdre's fight with the churchmice on the boat in DM. Still see her as a hero?

Thanks for the reply. In response, I’d say:
Point one- yes, of course. But the “let the world burn” attitude only makes sense for the individual, not the whole. It’s why most countries don’t let victims or victims’ families set the penalty for crimes as they are not rational actors and able to make the best choices for a society given their closeness to the situation typically. Of course, though, I’d save my child first given the choice. The main issue I cited was setting the “let the world burn” irrationality as the ideal for a functional society.

Point two- I’m sort of joking.
That said, Deirdre still made the biggest, most consequential selfless sacrifice one can make for the safety of the universe. I don’t actually believe in “heroes” as a real life concept. She exhibited some anti-social behaviour, she lived apart from civilisation, she killed, she may have even enjoyed it. However, she also sacrificed herself to save the universe. No “bad” stuff she had done prior negates that just as a lifetime of being kind doesn’t negate a terrible act at the end if it. People are complex. And remember, we know very little of her inner-life. Everything presented to us is through Dresden’s bias with little to no insight into her.

I also thought her sacrifice was a sort of a parallel or parallel adjacent to the Jesus mythos. I wondered, on reading it, if that was what Butcher meant to do with it.

[wardenferry419]

The ideal of a functional society should be "Don't f#(k with me, I won't F#(k with you and we"ll get stuff done."  Pretty simple to understand; but, for some reason, difficult in the application.
Deirdre was a grown woman and she made her choice; but, I hate Nico for giving his child that choice to begin with.

[Rasins]

While Deirdre did allow herself to be sacrificed, it wasn't really all that brave a thing. 

Remember she was also attempting to avoid her fate in the hands of TWG by fleeing to another pantheon's afterlife.  Further she KNEW there was an afterlife.  Granted she didn't think it thought.  Hades will give her her just rewards, but it's no lake of fire.