Black Magic - Intent, Fact & Knowledge

[Vivictus]

This is mostly related to the first law and how it relates to black magic.  It's come up several times that the corrupting effect of black magic is largely due to twisting creative forces to commit murder and believing it's the right thing to do.  Given that, it seems like there may be three components to consider.

Intent - What is the practitioner trying to do?
Fact - What is the actual result?
Knowledge - Is the practitioner even aware of the result?

So, here are a few scenarios.  Fairly easy to determine if a situation is a first law violation, a little harder to know if the result is black magic, with the self inflicted damage that entails. 

• Killing in self defense - Pretty much Harry's situation with Justin.  First law violation and black magic.  Clearly redeemable with support
• Accidental killing - In battle, throwing fire at a red court vamp (RCV) who ducks.  A human friend behind it is hit and killed.  Technically a first law violation but is it black magic?
• Killing a human by mistake - In battle, throwing fire at what you mistakenly believe to be a RCV who is killed.  The target was actually a vanilla human.  Neither you or anyone else knows this was the case.  First law violation yes, black magic?
• Killing a human by mistake v2 - Same situation, but after the battle you check the body and find that they were human.  First law violation yes, black magic?
• Accidental Killing unawares - Using force magic to blow open a door.  A person behind it is struck and killed.  The wizard leaves without discovering they've killed someone or even that someone was there.  Again, first law violation, but black magic?
• Trying to kill a human and failing - In a bar, someone hits on you date.  You respond with a fireball that's intended to be fatal.  They duck and run, surviving.  Not a first law violation, seems like it might be black magic?
• Same situation, but the fireball lands killing the target.  Turns out, unbeknownst to the wizard, the "victim" was a RCV out hunting for a meal.  Not a first law violation, seems even more like it might be black magic?

 

What do you think?

[jonas]

I'm having trouble disconcerting your point? What is your conclusions based on this?

[Griffyn612]

The WoJ on the subject is that intent has no bearing on dark magic corruption.  If you do something bad for the right reasons, you're corrupted.

[Vivictus]

I'm having trouble disconcerting your point? What is your conclusions based on this?

Hi Jonas,

More a question than a point.  I'm fuzzy on where an action crosses the line into black magic and what considerations determine it.

Thx.  Vic

[Vivictus]

The WoJ on the subject is that intent has no bearing on dark magic corruption.  If you do something bad for the right reasons, you're corrupted.

Interesting.  I take "doing something bad for the right reasons" as knowing what you're doing but feeling that it's justified or believing that it's the "least wrong" option available.  The first scenario, killing in self defense seems to fall into this category.

I'm more questioning scenarios where there isn't any reasoning involved. e.g. A human is killed accidently and perhaps the practitioner isn't even aware of it after the fact.  Still black magic?

Or, conversely a practitioner casts what if fully intended to be lethal black magic but fails to kill the target due to external interference.  (Say, an entropy curse cast at a human that is redirected to a black court vamp...)  Not black magic due to incompetence?

Another interesting scenario.  If Butters had killed a human with a magic device during his Batman phase.  The actual power is coming from Bob.  So, not black magic and Butters doesn't experience any corruption?
 

[Griffyn612]

Interesting.  I take "doing something bad for the right reasons" as knowing what you're doing but feeling that it's justified or believing that it's the "least wrong" option available.  The first scenario, killing in self defense seems to fall into this category.

I'm more questioning scenarios where there isn't any reasoning involved. e.g. A human is killed accidently and perhaps the practitioner isn't even aware of it after the fact.  Still black magic?

Or, conversely a practitioner casts what if fully intended to be lethal black magic but fails to kill the target due to external interference.  (Say, an entropy curse cast at a human that is redirected to a black court vamp...)  Not black magic due to incompetence?

Another interesting scenario.  If Butters had killed a human with a magic device during his Batman phase.  The actual power is coming from Bob.  So, not black magic and Butters doesn't experience any corruption?

This has come up from time to time, but I don't remember the details on the arguments.  Snark and Mr. Death are better versed in the latest debates on this, I believe.  They may chime in.

My take was that if you cast regular magic and it accidentally kills someone, it corrupts you.  If you cast regular magic with the intent to kill, it corrupts you. If you cast dark magic with ill intent, but it doesn't succeed, it corrupts you.  If you cast dark magic with ill intent, and it succeeds, it corrupts you.

There's some good WoJ on Eb and the Blackstaff that talks about just doing the things he does, even with the Staff protecting him from the worst aspects of dark magic, still requires a mindset that's disturbed, and psyche effects that are unavoidable for anyone not actually a sociopath. 

[Snark Knight]

Another interesting scenario.  If Butters had killed a human with a magic device during his Batman phase.  The actual power is coming from Bob.  So, not black magic and Butters doesn't experience any corruption?

Killing someone with an enchanted item has no more than the usual bad-for-the-soul moral implications of killing. That's literally what the Warden swords are designed for, for one thing.

On the other hand, Molly's rag lady phase probably was incurring soul corruption. We don't know for sure if she was limiting herself to only technically legal holomancy for stuff like tricking dirty cops into shootouts with Fomor servitors, or resorting to outright mental interference. But the strong implication of Jim's statement that it's effects that matter is that it's only the Wardens who would care about that - casting illusions meant to trick people to their deaths, and succeeding, was warping her mind no matter how she did it.

[wardenferry419]

Perhaps the corruption comes from taking an elemental force of life and losing it in such a manner that it ends life.

[jonas]

casting illusions meant to trick people to their deaths, and succeeding, was warping her mind no matter how she did it.

I'd have to disagree, Lea basically taught Molly to use fear without breaking the laws of magic. Sure, it's a grey area, but it's the same grey area the Sidhe live in and they absolutely cannot abrogate freedom of will.

crosses the line into black magic and what considerations determine it

That's the clincher for the laws of magic, if you look at them, all 7 break free will universal laws, with a slight exception for #7, it could break the same law as Necromancy, but it's more just bad juju for reality.
1 Murder is pretty self explanatory, take away their choice entirely
2 It destroys them just the same, by slowly taking away who/what they were, taking away their freedom/soul as a human too.
3 Breaking into minds against their will..
4 Completely breaking the will of another.
5 Ghosts aren't supposed to effect fate/reality, have no body/soul to do so, ect.
6 Altering time, trying to alter someone else's choices or flow of fate/freedom. Interestingly if you use Bob's indirect methodology you can avoid the actual cosmic repercussions by standing in a grey area...
7 Outergates, all kinda of dead/undead gods and such.
If you take 'gaia' as our cabbalistic seraphim, TWC as our current Spiritus Mundus, spirit of our planet, and Nemesis as our dark mirror and wrap it up with Yeat's the second coming as our spirit being replaced in a mirroring opposite fashion throughout time and space and you have 'freedom of will' as the current order of the Spiritus Mundus and violating that as an unbalanced force. Lucifer exists 'here' to balance regular corruptive actions by bringing 'judgement' upon  those actions... Magic has no dark god to dole out retribution or otherwise metaphysically balance out breaking the order of 'planet/star/archangel' So Nemesis, our dark mirror gets to act in that imbalance. In religious context, 'sin' was an unbalanced force which damned all of humanity before TWC saved them and made Hell for the damned(which in the DF prevents them from nothingness/outside/beyond), repurposed Satan the Accuser into Lucifer the Devil.

Another interesting scenario.  If Butters had killed a human with a magic device during his Batman phase.  The actual power is coming from Bob.  So, not black magic and Butters doesn't experience any corruption?

Probably not, Bob would just be another form of insulation, like a mantle or talisman or blackstaff.

[Ananda]

The WoJ on the subject is that intent has no bearing on dark magic corruption.  If you do something bad for the right reasons, you're corrupted.

That was the essence of Proven Guilty. Molly had good intentions and yet ...

[huangjimmy108]

That was the essence of Proven Guilty. Molly had good intentions and yet ...

Actually, Molly's intent is not very pure. It is proven by the fact that Rosy's damage is far less severe compare to the damage done to her ex boyfriend.

As mere mortals, wizardkind has a hard time mastering their intent, their magic therefore is not as well controlled as pure supernatural being like the fae. The very nature of mortal free will does not allow for such a pure intent in a mortal. It is the very reason for the existence of the murphionic field.

Even though Rosy's damage is mitigated , I doubt Molly does not feel a least a bit of anger and jealousy against Rosy. The girl did take her boyfriend away. and when she decided to invade the minds of her friend and ex boyfriend, I doubt there is no slightest bit of dark excitement involve. The dark side of altering another's mind is a popular subject in pop culture, and unless Molly already achieve a mental state of an enlighten Buddha, saying that her intent is purely good is most likely a false assumption.

If you ask me, intent does matter, but in a case where magic is used to kill a mortal, or breaking any of the 7 laws for that matter, a case where there is pure good intent involve might as well be none. It is only a matter of degrees, and it will be reflected in the level of taint received and how it will impact the wizard's sanity and control.

Judging this kind of thing is rather difficult, so the white council just kill everyone they can.

There are alsow ways to avoid the taint, or at least that is what the council believes, which may or may not be true. Using an enchanted swords, Transforming into a wolf and biting a mortal's throat. Using kinetomancy to speed yourself up and stab someone with a knife with that speed advantage and so on.

Up until now, I am not even sure about whether or not Molly's tenure as the rag lady tainted her. The deterioration of her sanity might be an indicator of the taint, but due to exposure to the blood ritual in CY during book 12 + her involvement in Harry suicide, Molly's sanity is already taken a lot of hit. It is enough to explain her condition without blaming it on black magic taint. The council did want to execute her, but the council would do that even if Molly stay at home and be a good girl all the time. The fact that Harry is dead is enough for the council.

It muddies the water, And as far as I know there is no WoJ confirming this issue either.

My best guess is no. Molly's illusion, though ended up in mortal death, does not taint her more than when a warden use swords to cut down warlocks or supposed to be warlocks.

[wardenferry419]

Good intentions are not the same as pure intentions. People often have good intentions or benevolence in their actions; but, that does not mean that these actions occur in the manner of their hopes. In Molly's case, she was a teenage girl working with tools that she had never used before and dealing with those meddlesome emotions that often get in the way. Were her actions right? No. Should she have sought Harry's advice? Yes. But, she has a father that is heroic. A teenage crush who is heroic. And, she wanted to do something heroic.

[apgrey]

  I think there is a WOJ that black magic corruption does not equate exactly with the 7 Laws of Magic.  The Laws are a simplification for use by the Council. 
  So breaking the Laws causes corruption 9 time out of 10, but in theory one could break a Law without the black magic corruption happening.  And also, something that is within the letter of the Laws might cause some corruption to occur.
 
APG

[huangjimmy108]

Good intentions are not the same as pure intentions. People often have good intentions or benevolence in their actions; but, that does not mean that these actions occur in the manner of their hopes. In Molly's case, she was a teenage girl working with tools that she had never used before and dealing with those meddlesome emotions that often get in the way. Were her actions right? No. Should she have sought Harry's advice? Yes. But, she has a father that is heroic. A teenage crush who is heroic. And, she wanted to do something heroic.

Sadly, in magic pure intent is what matters. In many ways, magic is the most honest expression of inner thoughts, beliefs and desires. One must manifest those desires, focus on it and substancialize it. It makes it difficult to argue innocence due to ignorance. Somewhere deep down inside, a black magic practicianer must have sense the corruption and the wrongness of the act when they first attempt it.

Ignorance may encourage the practicianer to underestimate the danger, justify it,  or even goes into denial, but to say that they do not feel any instinctive wrongness when they are about to cast black magic would be a lie. And if such an instinctive warning is completely non existent when a practicianer is casting something, most likely that casting is not black magic in the firstplace.

[Rasins]

Intent is not a factor in being tainted by black magic.

I seem to recall a WoJ where he said that if a wizard uses magic to light a candle and the candle gets knocked over, burning the house down and humans die, the wizard will be tainted.