DuMorne and favors owed

[Talby16]

A forum moderator has a duty to all forum users to be fair and impartial, but the obligation to remain a moderator is only to the site owner that hired him/her.

Similarly, as WK Harry owes fealty to all of Winter, but his obligation to remain WK is only to Mab based on the Changes deal. The SK deal with Mab is three tasks in exchange for all debt to Mab ceasing. That means if Harry completes a third favor, his obligation to remain as WK ends.

Apologies in advance for the length of the post. Cozarkian, are you saying that the Changes deal is completely separate from the previous favors/obligation set-up with Mab? I always saw it as a continuation. If so,I am a little confused about the chain of events with regards to this debt.

Harry owes a debt to Lea. He is able to forestall her for a year and a day at the end of GP by taking the poison. Lea is forced to sell that obligation to Mab due to her power increase from accepting the knife from Bianca in GP. Mab comes to Harry in Summer Knight and offers to erase the obligation in exchange for three favors. Harry accepts after a few conditions. The first favor is to act as Winter's Emissary which he completes. Then (in SK) Mab makes the Winter Knight offer:

"We have a traitor among us," Mab purred. "And he will be dealt with accordingly. After which there will be an opening for a new Knight." She watched me and said, "I would have someone worthy of more trust as his successor. Accept that power and all debts between us are canceled."

To me, this means erasing the obligation Mab took from Lea and the two favors Harry owes Mab for that obligation. Mab calls upon Harry again in Small Favor to be her emissary in the matter of the Denarians taking Marcone. She again makes the Winter Knight offer to Harry:

"Unless you should agree to take up the mantle of the Winter Knight," Mab said, smiling. "I should be forced to choose another Emissary if you did, and your involvement in this matter could end." This is followed by:

She tilted her head to one side and stared at me. "One day, wizard, you will kneel at my feet and ask me to bestow the mantle upon you."

"But not today."

"No," Mab said. "Today you repay me a favor. Just as I said you would."

Harry once again completes this task removing another favor leaving one still owed to erase his debt to Mab. Finally in Changes Harry calls upon Mab. He offers to become the Winter Knight with one condition:

"That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love."

Mab accepts, Harry kills Slate, and then Mab and Harry "seal the deal." Granted, at no point do either Mab or Harry mention this taking away the third favor owed or erasing Harrys previous obligation to Mab. Yet, based upon previous encounters this would erase Harry's third favor and his previous obligation to Mab wiping that previous slate clean.

My understanding is that the Winter Knight deal erased the obligation and favors and thus completing another favor will not negate the Winter Knight deal.

[Cozarkian]

@Talby

In 2009 I offered to sell you my house for $ and I'll throw in the furniture. You said no, rejecting the offer. I tell you that one day you will beg me to sell you my house for $. Eight years later after the market recovery you come to me and say you would like to buy my house for $. I agree to the deal. However, per law, I am not obligated to give you the furniture because you previously rejected my earlier offer and did not include the furniture in your new offer.

The same applies to Harry - he rejected the SmF deal to become WK and the changes deal was a new offer with different terms.

[Talby16]

Hmmm, I understand that. How would Harry claim that a task his liege set forth for him is a favor though. She has the ability to order him to do something and if he refuses she can kill or strip the mantle from him. Getting rid of the mantle would be a plus, but it is much more likely that she would outright kill him for a direct refusal. His only option is to refuse a request and hope that she comes back with "do it as a favor for me," but we have already seen in Skin Game that she is capable of arranging things so that Harry would find it impossible to refuse a request. If she wants Harry to do something she is going to set it up so that he can't say no.

[Cozarkian]

Because it's Mab's plan in the first place. She knows there may be a time in the near future when she needs to die.

The dirty secret behind the WK is that by bestowing their power upon a mortal the Queens make themselves vulnerable to the WK. Most WKs couldn't pull off though, and as of Cold Days, Harry still can't (Mab can't lie when she tells Harry he would die before he could pull the trigger), but Mab chose and is training Harry precisely so he will be able and ready to kill her, and she will deliberately ask him to do it as a favor, rather than an order.

It will be something like "Harry, you fool, shut up and listen to me. I've been infected by the adversary. I can fight him for now but the time will come when I will start to lose control. When that time comes, I need you to do me a favor, I need you to kill me."

Or I could be completely wrong, but that's my WAG.

[wardenferry419]

  I can see future assassin of Mab as strongly possible. But, if he should find a way to rid himself of the mantle; she should not be able to force him to re-take the WK mantle as payment of the 3rd favor or could she?

[Cozarkian]

  I can see future assassin of Mab as strongly possible. But, if he should find a way to rid himself of the mantle; she should not be able to force him to re-take the WK mantle as payment of the 3rd favor or could she?

The original rules would still be in play - he gets to pick the favors he fulfills and she can't punish him for refusal or send lackeys to harass him.

[wardenferry419]

Putting aside the question if Harry could kill Mab for a moment. Would Harry be willing to kill Mab if she said she was Nem-infected or would she have to do or threaten to do something drastic and horrible to one of his loved ones in order for him to kill her?

[Cozarkian]

Putting aside the question if Harry could kill Mab for a moment. Would Harry be willing to kill Mab if she said she was Nem-infected or would she have to do or threaten to do something drastic and horrible to one of his loved ones in order for him to kill her?

He probably won't want to, but will eventually be forced to realize it is a necessity. I don't envision it as a kill me - Harry kills her scene, it will be a subplot to the book with the death of Mab being the final climax. Either the last book setting up the BAT (Faith Astor could be tied in with the Fae) or the first book of the BAT.

[Rasins]

I thought Jim pretty much put the third favor question to bed by saying that as WK he owes no favors, but that a debt never goes away.  Implying that if he gets out of being WK, the favor is still owed.

[Kindler]

I thought Jim pretty much put the third favor question to bed by saying that as WK he owes no favors, but that a debt never goes away.  Implying that if he gets out of being WK, the favor is still owed.

Makes me wonder if Harry could've gotten more out of the deal he made to become the Winter Knight. Wipe his debt completely clean, provide money (maybe in the form of gold or whatever Mab can get her hands on) for his daughter, et cetera. I know he was going to her out of desperation, but at that point, milk it for all it's worth, you know?

[Cozarkian]

I thought Jim pretty much put the third favor question to bed by saying that as WK he owes no favors, but that a debt never goes away.  Implying that if he gets out of being WK, the favor is still owed.

Do you happen to have the exact quote Based on the way you represent it, I think it supports the position. Harry might not be obligated to fulfill a favor while he is WK but it doesn't mean he can't choose to, and if the debt never goes away, nor does Mab's promise that Harry's obligation to her will cease if Harry does fulfill a favor. It strikes me as a sneaky way of JB trying to cast doubt on something he has planned without directly lying.

[Rasins]

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21772.msg947675.html#msg947675

Now, prior to Cold Days Dresden still owes Mab one favour, does he still owe her that favour or did the events of Cold Days make up for his obligation?
Technically yeah, he still kind of owes her that one favour, but on the other hand, he also sort of owes her his complete loyalty, devotion and obedience so the extra favour is, you know, it's like "yeah okay, he also does have a hand grenade in his hand while he's sitting on top of a nuke that's about to go off", so you know, technically she could probably mess with that if he somehow got out of being the knight, But uh, generally speaking that didn't just get wiped away, Mab keeps very good books and that's not something that's going to be, she does not let things slide, it does not happen.

[wardenferry419]

I can see the last favor as a backup plan against Harry. You kinda need to have a couple when dealing with him.

[Talby16]

I can see the last favor as a backup plan against Harry. You kinda need to have a couple when dealing with him.

I could see him getting out of being the Winter Knight and thinking he is free, only for Mab to show up and claim that last favor for something Harry would not like or want to do. The thought of his internal monologue when he realizes he still owes a favor is making me smile.

[wardenferry419]

Yeah, that is a moment that can't come soon enough.