Mab/Murphy Ironies

[raidem]

So many of you have asked about my Mab/Murphy theory.  I truly don't know how it could happen, either in some alternate reality it is true, or if it did occur in the past via TT, or she becomes Mab in the future.  But, I think I can say a case can be made where there are potential ironies that exist should Jim skew that way.  There are more than the ones I listed here, but these are the ones that I recall at the moment.

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1)

2. the white council - isn't mab her true name?
It's /one/ of her Names.  But God help the simp (or Council of simps) who tries to control her with that and nothing else.  Ugh, that would get ugly.

Instead of trying to play shepherd, you need to play coach, and get her into shape to do what she needs to do."
"But that means-"
"Telling her everything," my double said. "The White Council, the Nevernever, all of it."
"The Council won't like it. If I tell her and they hear about it, they might consider her a security risk."
"And if you don't make her able to understand what she's fighting, something's going to eat her face some dark night. Murphy's a big girl. The Council had better be careful if they decide to go messing with her." My double considered Murphy for a moment. "You should ask her out sometime, too."
"I should what?" I said.

2)

WOJ- Mab wasn't always so big, followed by .
Murphy constantly joked with about her height.
Shakespeare reference to Hermia in Midsummer's Night Dream (And though she be but little, she is fierce.)

*)

Something was upsetting her. A lot.
"Murph?" I asked through the door. "Where did the aliens hide your pod?"
She opened the door enough to scowl at me. "What's that supposed to mean?"
"No pod, huh. Maybe you're an evil twin from another dimension or something."
The muscles along her jaw clenched, and her expression promised murder.
I sighed. "You don't seem to be your usual serf. I'm not an analyst or anything, but you kinda look like something is bothering you. Just maybe."
She waved a hand. "It's this paperwork-"
"No, it isn't," I said. "Come on, Murphy. It's me."
"I don't want to talk about it."

So what does she not want to talk about...a Family Reunion where she won't have a date and the fact she had two divorces. It's also the first reference to familial dementia with the second reference being made by Sarissa in Cold Days) Murphy later finds out her ex will be her brother in law, ouch. And, her mother is accepting of it.  Who does that start to remind you of, cough.

Oberon... well, the guy kind of wound up between Mab and Titania in one of those romantic triangle things, back around Shakespeare's day. He didn't make it.

That sounds like Mab and Titania maybe had some jealous/rivalry issues in their past.  I wonder where that came from.
3)

She shrugged. “I don’t know. I don’t want to think about it. I don’t want to make any more decisions. So . . . I think I’m going to go get really drunk. And then have mindless sex with the first reasonably healthy male who walks by. Then have a really awkward hangover. And after that, we’ll see.”
“Sounds like a good plan,” I said. And my mouth kept going without checking in with the rest of me. Again. “Do you want some company?...Her hand went to her hair and she forced it back down. “I want to . . .” She took a breath. “I’ll pick you up in an hour?”

Who picks Harry up in an Hour, Mab after he is shot dead.

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4)

Karrin’s hands flew out from behind her back in a shower of broken chips of black ice. She tore her little holdout gun from a concealed ankle holster.
“No!” I shouted.
Two shots rang out, almost simultaneously.Something hissed spitefully past my ear.
A neat, round black hole appeared just to the side of Maeve’s nose, at the fine line of her cheekbone.
Maeve blinked twice. Her face fell into what was almost precisely the same expression of confusion Lily’s had. A trickle of blood ran from the hole.

Mab moved so quickly that I literally never saw it. The gun was suddenly, simply gone from my hand and was being pushed into my face—in exactly the same spot where Maeve had been shot.

“Was it hard for you to kill Maeve?”
Mab did not turn around. When she spoke, her voice had something in it I had never heard there before and never heard again—uncertainty. Vulnerability.
“I was mortal once, you know,” she said, very quietly.

But, Murphy, a mortal, had killed Maeve.
5)

I clenched my fists along with my teeth. “You . . . you bitch.”
Mab slapped me.

Whose the other bitch in the series.  Just kidding.

Her smile sharpened. “Is it not quite the game?” she asked. “In my younger days, I would have relished such a novel challenge.”
“Yeah,” I said. “Gee. Thanks.”

And yet...

“It is necessary to set one condition.”
Her eyes narrowed. “What condition?”
“Backup,” I said. “I want an extra pair of eyes along. Someone of my choosing.”

Harry chose Murphy as his Backup, who perhaps in 'her' younger days, participated in the 'novel challenge.'
6) Just examine in a reread of all the deals Murphy makes. She is very transactional.  It's likely she has lots of faerie blood given her Irish roots. And her families proximity in dealing with the supernatural.

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Harry touches Molly, Winter Lady via dream.

I dreamed.
It was one of those fever dreams, noisy and bright and disjointed. I don’t remember many of the details—just that I could never keep up with what was happening, and I felt as though as soon as my eyes would focus on something, everything would change, and as soon as I caught up to the action that was happening in the dream, it would roar off in a different direction, leaving me struggling to reorient myself, trying to keep up the pace with my feet dragging in the mud. The whole while, I was conscious of several other Harry Dresdens in the dream, all of them operating a little ways off from me, doing their own confusion dance in parallel to mine, and we occasionally paused to wave at one another and exchange polite complaints.
Toward the end of it, I found myself driving along some random section of road in my old multicolored Volkswagen Bug, the Blue Beetle, scowling ahead through heavy rain. My apprentice, Molly, sat next to me.

Harry touches Mab/Murphy, Winter Queen through dream?

“Now,” she breathed. “Don’t hold back. Don’t hold back.”
And suddenly I couldn’t, wouldn’t, didn’t want to. I braced my hands on the bed, holding my weight off of her, and could think of nothing but how good it felt, about the pleasure building and building.
“Yes,” Karrin hissed. “Come on.”
I reached the shuddering edge—
—and felt something cold and hard press against my temple.
I opened my eyes and saw her holding her SIG against the side of my head. And as I watched, a second set of eyes, glowing with a hellish violet light, opened above her eyebrows, and a burning sigil of the same fire, in a shape vaguely reminiscent of an hourglass, appeared on her forehead.
Her voice changed, became lower, richer, more sensual. “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned,” she purred.
And then she pulled the trigger.

Placeholder.

[raidem]

Bah, can someone help me find the WOJ that Mab wasn't always so big .  I distinctly remember Jim stating something like that with a smiley alluding to Mab being a dew drop faerie, or at least something consistent with Shakespeare, at least in humor.  I liked to take it as Jim hinting at Murphy being Tiny.

[Ananda]

Do you mean similarities and coincidences of word choice in description rather than irony? I’m not seeing irony.

Personally, I would find such small universe loops to be boring. Let the universe, which is already small, not collapse in on itself. Also, Butcher’s writing is not exactly high art. That he repeats phrases and words is probably more a function of churning out the stories and a pretty short editing process. You can find a lot of sentences and paragraphs in the books that cry out for further editing. And, some authors just have favourite words; look at Stephen R Donaldson with his “roynish” and “gloaming”.

I think Murphy is Murphy and Mab is Mab and that you’re seeing things that aren’t there.

[jonas]

Do you mean similarities and coincidences of word choice in description rather than irony? I’m not seeing irony.

Personally, I would find such small universe loops to be boring. Let the universe, which is already small, not collapse in on itself. Also, Butcher’s writing is not exactly high art. That he repeats phrases and words is probably more a function of churning out the stories and a pretty short editing process. You can find a lot of sentences and paragraphs in the books that cry out for further editing. And, some authors just have favourite words; look at Stephen R Donaldson with his “roynish” and “gloaming”.

I think Murphy is Murphy and Mab is Mab and that you’re seeing things that aren’t there.

One day, ONE DAY, he will no longer have any more of his original storyline to protect and maybe then he'll open up on all those things short sighted people missed. The breadth and depth of combining pop culture and mythologies from across the globe would get it a pass even if it wasn't magnificently layered and set up. A 20 book preplanned series that actually made it to fruition in the main stream? That gives it so much bona fides.
fyi- an maybe a curator would know where it originally came from, because I first heard it from Serack, Jim intentionally uses words to cross connect idea's. Someone did a thread on the blackmagic/ N connection words iirc.

[raidem]

Well, I said potential irony, in the case that Murphy=Mab. 

These are coincidences.  We assume many of these to have different non meanings in regard to mab and Murphy.  I'm the only one that has pursued it in any capacity. There is potential irony in the case of a reading whereby Murphy is truly mab.  It puts an entirely different spin on what is being said, Which is a type of irony.

[Ananda]

One day, ONE DAY, he will no longer have any more of his original storyline to protect and maybe then he'll open up on all those things short sighted people missed. The breadth and depth of combining pop culture and mythologies from across the globe would get it a pass even if it wasn't magnificently layered and set up. A 20 book preplanned series that actually made it to fruition in the main stream? That gives it so much bona fides.
fyi- an maybe a curator would know where it originally came from, because I first heard it from Serack, Jim intentionally uses words to cross connect idea's. Someone did a thread on the blackmagic/ N connection words iirc.

I didn’t say the story was bad, but rather that Butcher is not a great writer. The first few books amaze me in that they got published at all given how bad they are. His writing has improved over the years, but that’s not saying they are *good* now. The story is fun, but it’s not well written. There is a difference between an entertaining story and good writing. Butcher has an entertaining story in the Dresden Files and that’s why I buy the books despite the writing. (Though, if not for a friend insisting that the story was worth trudging through the first books, I would have stopped pretty early in book one.)

On the other hand, his new series, The Windlass or whatnot, was both poorly written and formulaic and I found that I could barely finish it. I will not buy the next one.

I’ll be incredibly surprised if your theory regarding the two Ms is true, however. Still, we’ll  have to wait till 2030something to find out.

[Cozarkian]

Bah, can someone help me find the WOJ that Mab wasn't always so big .  I distinctly remember Jim stating something like that with a smiley alluding to Mab being a dew drop faerie, or at least something consistent with Shakespeare, at least in humor.  I liked to take it as Jim hinting at Murphy being Tiny.

I believe it was responding to a question about Toot growing.

[Talby16]

I think the connections are tenuous. I prefer Murphy and Mab as separate beings who share some similarities. I do promise to kneel and pay respect if you are correct at the end (for whatever that is worth).

[raidem]

Alright, now I'll try to argue against it, or at least pose potential hurdles to overcome.
First off, why would Murphy name her children Maeve and Sarissa knowing their fate.  Or, did she already name them that, so in one reality/alternate reality it's set in stone.
Second, does Maeve or Sarissa look similar to Murphy?  Surely genetics would play a part even if the mantle had shaped Murphy into Mab's appearance. Or do Maeve and Sarissa simply look like Mab, so the genetics actually get changed to Mab genetics.
Third, WOJ has it that Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters. (I can propose a set of conditions that fulfill the requirements here but it requires two Murphy's from two alternate realities and Harry's joke to Murphy about a evil twin)
Fourth, It's likely someone would know Mab's identity in Faerie, particularly Lea, who rose to power with her.  So, throughout the series, Lea would be fully aware of Murphy's fate.  And most certainly would Vadderung, and the other highest powers.  I'd argue that Nic/Anduriel does too because Mab, supposedly our Mab, had to make a great many deals (one with Nic) in her takeover of the defense at the Outergates. It would put a new spin on things with Nic/Murphy and Nic/Mab faceoff during SkinGame.  Mac also has history with Mab, so its possible when Mac was IN, he was in a position to know. (See SG and greetings. See Murphy face off against Tiny in Small Favor: Mac is impressed and gives them REAL mead.) I'd estimate that the Gatekeeper knows, he has been their the longest, and is the eldest of the wizards.  )
Fifth, Any time plots worth their salt would try to aim at undercutting Murphy's ascension to Mab.  Though, if true, it would be fairly difficult to disestablish that once it had occurred 1000+ years ago.
Sixth, Murphy would need to time travel back 1000+ years ago, most likely with Harry. They would have to participate in events and overturn historical inertia.  Murphy would need to supplant a Winter Lady.  She would need some time and team up with Lea.  She would then given an event that would take out both Winter and Summer Queens ascend to Mab.  This event would coincide with the last time things got off/awful in the wizarding world. Given this, a book would probably need to revisit around the Battle of Hastings, perhaps around the time where Merlin created Demonreach at one of the points in time.  Team Good launches counter to Team Bad at this point in time which gives Team Good license to time travel to then and affect change.

[raidem]

Most importantly, the MOTHERS would know.  Though they always are giving hints about being able to keep oneself.  Harry thinks they are talking about him, or we think maybe about Molly, but are they talking about Murphy mantled as Mab.  They say a great many things with maximum ambiguity.

“I’m saying many things,” Mother Summer said. “Do you have a chance to remain yourself despite the tendency of the mantle to mold your thoughts and desires? All Knights, Winter and Summer, have that chance. Most fail.”
“But it’s possible,” I said.
She looked up at me and her eyes were deeper than time. “Anything is possible.”
“Ah,” I said, understanding. “We’re not really talking about me.”
“We are,” she said serenely, turning her eyes away. “And we are not.”
“Uh,” I said. “I’m getting a little confused here. What are we talking about, exactly?”
Mother Summer smiled at me.
And then she just clammed up.
We are? We’re not?

2015 AMA
Is Nic older than Mab?
He is.

FitzMelech: @longshotauthor  Is Rashid the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred?
Jim: @FitzMelech He's the guy who took /down/ AlHazred.
Sarks: You have said that the Gatekeeper took down the Mad Arab, Abdul Alhazred. Is that Gatekeeper the same one we have currently? If yes, is he really that old, or was it time travel?
Jim: 3) He's really that old. And we're all time travelers. We just happen to be on the slow boat.

Gatekeeper is approximately 1300+ years old. Old enough to be alive, an active wizard to have already taken out Alhazred before our Mab ascended to Mab.
So, given that Nic, Gatekeeper, Lea, and Vadderung would be in the know about Mab's true identity, it is necessary to examine their interaction with Murphy for clues.  As far as the Archangels, we already know they Archangels took an interest in Murphy.  Murphy trains with the einherjar, was at CI, and particpated in the Wild Hunt so she is on Vadderung's radar.  ErlKing's radar would have noticed her at the Wild Hunt in CD.

I need to add Vadderung's hint to Harry about mask/mantles on Halloween in CD.  Was he hinting about someone other than Harry, say Mab/Murphy, putting on or discarding a mantle on Halloween.

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“Maybe you’ll try,” Kringle replied amiably. He looked out at the lightening sky and let out a satisfied breath. “It was Halloween, Dresden. You put on a mask for a time. That’s all.” He looked directly at me and said, “Many, many mantles are worn—or discarded—on Halloween night, wizard.”
“You mean masks?” I asked, frowning.
“Masks, mantles,” Kringle said. “What’s the difference?”
He winked at me.
And for the briefest fraction of a second, the shadows falling from the tower and the cottage in the gathering morning behind us seemed to flow together. The eye he winked with vanished behind a stripe of shadow and what looked like a wide scar. His face seemed leaner, and for that instant I saw Vadderung’s wolfish features lurking inside Kringle’s.
I sat straight up, staring.

[raidem]

Question, prior to CD, were Mab and Murphy ever in each other's presence or has Mab ever made reference to Murphy? While I believe that Mab knew of Murphy and her ties to Harry, I don't think that Mab credited her with much significance.

First off, if Mab is a time traveling character that has yet to go into the past, then Mab would need to minimize her interactions and deals with her prior self as that would greatly complicate time travel related plots.
(This isn't directly relevant but I read it yesterday, it stood out in a way where one thing Mab does leads to multiple ways Harry and Murphy interact and overcome personal issues)
It's not in PG, but in SK when Mab asks Harry to work for her on a homicide and stolen object (summer knight), Mab forces Harry to stab himself with a letter opener.  He goes to White Council where he basically gets forced into choosing to work for Mab then goes to Murphy for help on the homicide investigation, police files, etc.  Murphy is in a hot mess with her ex dying from cancer, and with nightmares after Kravos impersonated Harry and got inside her head.  Short story short, Murphy took care of Harry's hand.  The case brings them together and out of both their deep funks as Harry was in a deep funk from losing Susan to RCV (half-turned).  It also seems likely that Mab may have neutralized some magic that Harry ate from Kravos that was lingering see excerpt.

Mab placed her gloved hand on my wounded one, and a sudden spike of sheer, vicious cold shot up through the injury like a frozen scalpel before lancing up my arm, straight toward my heart.

[raidem]

No offense intended to you, Raidem; you aren't simply throwing this out there with no reasonable evidence. There are parallels between Murphy and Mab to be drawn. I just don't think they indicate time travel.

I understand; And, thank you. I've struggled with the theory too. I've entertained one that doesn't need time travel, that Murphy becomes Mab in the future or alternate reality not distant past. It's definitely less cumbersome.

[Ananda]

Quote

No offense intended to you, Raidem; you aren't simply throwing this out there with no reasonable evidence. There are parallels between Murphy and Mab to be drawn. I just don't think they indicate time travel.

No offense intended to you, Raidem; you aren't simply throwing this out there with no reasonable evidence. There are parallels between Murphy and Mab to be drawn. I just don't think they indicate time travel

Did you just time travel to make your point? scary!

[raidem]

Wow, I don't know how that happened.  I guess I was trying to copy and move over a quote from another thread to here.  And, then I was suppose to be writing a reply.

Hmmm...I forget the reply I wrote. LOL
Edited: I found what i was copying to paste there. It's corrected.

[wardenferry419]

Is it a case of old age or busy mind? Seems like I have been experiencing both of late. And, yes, I am only 42.