Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic

[raidem]

I addressed at least two of your main questions.  And I proposed that she planned to bring Murphy into the equation.
As to the fetches, mab sent them. Woj confirms it.
Text in cold days already proves that mab was suspicious of maeve and most likely hedging in proven guilty by bringing in Molly.
I didn't recall mouse and Sandra interactions.

Sorry about threads going off topic of the op, though most were germane to pg.

[wardenferry419]

I think Mouse was only present during one of the Sandra interactions, the one where Molly is being questioned by cops. And, he was already tense from Darby interaction. Molly was the focus of the book, there is no doubt. But, I feel that Mab had more going than to clue Harry in about Nemesis.

[namkcas]

warden,

I just re-listened to PG.  There are 2 interactions on 1 trip.  No growls at Marling.  Yes, Mab wanted to give Harry a clue.  That was a secondary outcome not a primary outcome.  Because Harry received all kinds of information and had no idea.

[namkcas]

@raidem,

Actually all you did is post about your theories.  I put you on ignore about 3 years ago because this is my opinion of what you do.  You post about what you think repeatedly.  With the forum's going away, I removed that.  So how about this, make a post critiquing what I wrote without mentioning anything that you have ever posted.  Compare what I wrote to the text of the books and WoJ's, etc.  The point of the exercise is to see how well what the Theory Wrote compares to the information that we have. 

You have posted the same stuff for years about time travel and alternate realities and such.  My theory is that NONE of that happened in PG.  That there is NO Time Travel NOR is there any Alternate Reality NOR is there any Special Connection, except as I have spelled out.  This was Mab saving Molly.  In a Mab way.

[wardenferry419]

Hmm.., I'll go check. You could be right. I just find Sandra to be iffy.  That and taking Bob to the hotel seemed odd. It created a rare opportunity where noone was in Harry's place. I agree that Mab had plans for Molly. And, using Harry and Molly to discover the depth of Nem-infection in her court was possibly part of Mab's long game. Mab would see Harry as a crude but useful multi-purpose tool.

[Kindler]

@raidem,

Actually all you did is post about your theories.  I put you on ignore about 3 years ago because this is my opinion of what you do.  You post about what you think repeatedly.  With the forum's going away, I removed that.  So how about this, make a post critiquing what I wrote without mentioning anything that you have ever posted.  Compare what I wrote to the text of the books and WoJ's, etc.  The point of the exercise is to see how well what the Theory Wrote compares to the information that we have. 

You have posted the same stuff for years about time travel and alternate realities and such.  My theory is that NONE of that happened in PG.  That there is NO Time Travel NOR is there any Alternate Reality NOR is there any Special Connection, except as I have spelled out.  This was Mab saving Molly.  In a Mab way.

For what it's worth, I agree with your concept, pretty much as written. I can quibble over minor details, but as a whole it feels right. I don't think there needs to be time travel or anything special going on for the plot of Proven Guilty to be resolved. We already have at least one person with confirmed foresight into the events of the book, and it's certainly not a stretch for Mab to have similar foresight, even if Rashid didn't share information. In my opinion, Mab sees Molly as an investment. Mab is good as a talent scout; she even mentions making Thomas the Winter Knight, for example. She likes planting multiple seeds.

I would posit two further, less important motives for Mab: First, Harry. With Molly as his apprentice, Harry gets better at his job. It's like assigning him a low-intensity workout regimen. It's a situation that has a bunch of lingering effects. Molly's the one who detects Luccio's mental compromise; Molly's the one who later functions as Bonnie's midwife, and so on. It also forces Harry and Michael to confront each other, which Harry was reluctant to do thanks to Lasciel's shadow. This becomes particularly important considering the events of Small Favor, during which Harry becomes acquainted with Demonreach. A whole lot of dominoes get knocked over because of Harry's relationship with Molly, in other words. Primarily, as you pointed out, Molly is saved and the grooming process begins.

A second, less important motive: beginning the process of getting Murphy kicked out of the police force, and exposing her to Faerie politics for the first real time (Summer Knight doesn't count; she really just took down a chlorofiend). Murphy, who later is the one who pulls the trigger on Maeve, after spearheading an assault against the Red Court, gets in huge trouble for disappearing for a full day after Arctis Tor, and loses SI as a result. This puts her directly on a path that includes losing her badge entirely, and being free to pick up the slack when Harry's dead at the end of Changes. That requires a bit more foresight than is usually attributed to anyone, but even a sense from Mab along the lines of "Murphy will be an important player later, and this will help get her involved" is enough to sweeten the pot. Again, not as important as Molly, but still a potential thought.

Mostly, though, the simple answer is the best. Mab wanted Molly to be saved, and orchestrated a series of events that put Harry in the position to save her.

taking Bob to the hotel seemed odd. It created a rare opportunity where noone was in Harry's place.

I have never once realized that, and feel spectacularly stupid for missing it. The only one there was Mister, and he was likely out for his evening prowl.

[wardenferry419]

I, respectfully, have to disagree on your secondary motive. Murphy, would have been more useful as an authority figure for the police force. Granted, her freedom increased with loss of position; but, she lost resources that came with her position. Question, prior to CD, were Mab and Murphy ever in each other's presence or has Mab ever made reference to Murphy? While I believe that Mab knew of Murphy and her ties to Harry, I don't think that Mab credited her with much significance.

[Kindler]

I, respectfully, have to disagree on your secondary motive. Murphy, would have been more useful as an authority figure for the police force. Granted, her freedom increased with loss of position; but, she lost resources that came with her position. Question, prior to CD, were Mab and Murphy ever in each other's presence or has Mab ever made reference to Murphy? While I believe that Mab knew of Murphy and her ties to Harry, I don't think that Mab credited her with much significance.

For the record, disagree with me all you like, respectfully or otherwise; I have very thick skin. It's pretty much impossible to offend me.

I see your point; losing influence over the police isn't a good thing. However, Mab remedies that when she deals with Marcone, who has plenty, if not more, influence over Chicago PD.

Murphy's position in CPD is not one with major influence to begin with; she's Captain of the Misfits, Commander of the Career Dead-ends. She doesn't have a say in policy or procedure, and the one thing Mab might want—a bunch of cops showing up to a scene of her choosing—is influence Murphy still retains by virtue of being popular within her old department. If she picked up the phone and asked Stallings to come check something out, he'd do it. She just lacks official authority and capacity, which is unfortunate, but not all that critical. Murphy's more useful to Mab where she is, in my opinion. She's free to work with, for example, Marcone, which would never fly if she was still a cop. She holds the respect of a lot of the Free Will-Aligned Chicago; a whole lot of cops, Will, Butters, Molly, Abby, Michael, Sanya, Marcone, and even Lara have respect for her. So does Mort. She's one of a handful of people with enough clout and personal relationships to slap together an alliance to hold the line when it becomes necessary—and she couldn't do that and still be a cop. I don't think anyone else could've been in a good enough position to do what she did.

Marcone might've been able to pull it off, but he doesn't have the trust of the Paranet. It would be way more of a constant siege; a series of violent altercations based on retribution and preventive violence rather than life preservation.

I don't think they're ever seen together before Cold Days, but I'd wager that Mab knows all about Murphy cutting up an Aurora-possessed Chlorofiend with a chainsaw. I think she's been on Mab's radar for a while.

[wardenferry419]

Marcone does have greater authority, unofficially. I just feel that Mab didn't care whether Murphy was a cop or not. She sees Murphy as a Dresden-connected pawn with connections and willingness to face the supernatural.

[Cozarkian]

Murphy fighting the chlorofiend wasn't impressive - Aurora wasn't able to harm Murphy because Murphy wasn't an emissary so wasn't connected to the Fae.

It was like Lois Lane using kryptonite to fight Superman.

[Kindler]

Murphy fighting the chlorofiend wasn't impressive - Aurora wasn't able to harm Murphy because Murphy wasn't an emissary so wasn't connected to the Fae.

It was like Lois Lane using kryptonite to fight Superman.

Assuming that's true, Murphy didn't know that when she did it. It's like Lois Lane unknowingly wearing a kryptonite necklace, but choosing to fight Superman anyway. In this case, I think the relevant part is related to the old adage, but changed slightly to "It's not whether you win or lose, it's whether you play in the first place."

Marcone does have greater authority, unofficially. I just feel that Mab didn't care whether Murphy was a cop or not. She sees Murphy as a Dresden-connected pawn with connections and willingness to face the supernatural.

Ah, I get you. It's a perfectly valid interpretation. I won't belabor the point; I've said it all already.

[wardenferry419]

   Back to the OP for a moment, there were 4 questions asked. I would like to respond with possible answers. Not necessarily my POV, just random quick thoughts.
1. Who sent the fetches?
a. Mab sent them to use Molly as bait to get Harry's attention without losing a favor.
b. Maeve sent them as a bit of revenge against Harry for his attitude towards her.
c. Lea sent them to draw Harry to Arctus Tor and free her Nem-infected self.
2. Why did Black Council (prefer this name) attack Arctus Tor?
a. To free asset (Lea) from Mab.
b. To test Mab's defenses and capabilities.
c. Maeve, as a recently acquired asset, demanded it.
3. Who fixed Little Chicago?
a. Mab did it so that Harry would not die and Mab would lose a potentially useful fighter.
b. Lasciel, using Harry's body, as part of long con of temptation.
c. TTHarry, self preservation.
4.Who hit Harry's car?
a. Ace, for revenge over SK.
b. Sandra Marling, an opportunity to knock resident trouble-shooter out of picture.
c. Larry Fowler, because the guy is a pompous jerk.
   Just random thoughts, not validated.

[beetnemesis]

As much as I like figuring stuff out from an in-universe perspective (Watsonian), I think you guys need to take a step back and think like a Doyalist (author/reader perspective).

A Doyalist would be asking, what would make for a better story?

And honestly, a lot of the theories in this thread... would not make a good story.

Some key facts to consider:

Proven Guilty came out ages ago. Think about what that means. We've all moved on, and meaningless details have mostly been forgotten. It would be incredibly boring to have something like, say, "Remember 10 years ago? That person who had the idea of tracking Molly through her mother's blood....wasn't Murphy at all!!!! (It was actually Mab).

Reader reaction would just be, "Oh. Huh."

Same thing with Ace. Ace is done. No one cares about Ace. Hell, people barely cared about Ace when he came back in Cold Days. I don't even remember if he's dead, that's how irrelevant Ace is.  Imagine if we discovered that, 10 years ago... Ace almost hurt Harry with his car!!! (He didn't, though).

The problem is all the little inconsistencies in PG aren't actually important right now. If they're not important, they're not satisfying to read about.

And there's no way to MAKE them important, in the here and now- those books are done with, enemies defeated, everyone's moved on.

Luckily... we have a wizard, and Jim is chatty. Consider the following:

- Proven Guilty has a good number of minor, deliberate, unsolved mysteries.
- Jim has stated that Harry will need to deal with every one of the Laws before the series is over.
- At the time of writing Proven Guilty, Jim was also working on the Dresden Files RPG
- The Dresden Files RPG has a lot of bonus material not in the books, including information on Baltimore, secret societies, and a primer on how time travel works (page 243). It even references PG specifically, proving if nothing else that Jim had these two books on his mind.

So with all that in mind, I think the simplest solution, as unintuitive as it may be, is: a Time Traveller (likely Harry), who is in a story akin to Prisoner of Azkaban: Harry goes back to a time we've read about before, and has his own plot, while guiding/avoiding/fixing the events of the previous timeline.

It would make a LOT of sense, and be a good story, because the events would be happening "now," so to speak. Instead of "Oh, so you're the one who fixed my model city 10 years ago? ...thanks, I guess?" it'd be "Crap, I need to fix this model city NOW so I can find the bad guy, and I need to do it and get out of here before Past Harry gets home!"


___

I think that's what it comes down to, for me. Immediacy. Any theory that's just an unimportant minor revelation is just going to be incredibly unsatisfying to read, and considering that it's pretty clear how deliberate this was from Jim, I don't think unsatisfying is in the cards.

[namkcas]

@wardenferry,

1 - Those are the answers that are pretty standard.

2 - The one thing to me that stands out is the timing.  WHY attack then?  What was different?  The only answer I have is Molly.

--- As a note, this is the thing that made me come up with the theory.  They have years and years to attack Mab in Arctus Tor, yet they only do so when Molly is there.  I am stretching the text with this, because we have no exact timing of the attack.  It just seems unlikely that Mab would leave her gates blown up for Months and Years.  So I am presuming that the attack is recent to when Harry shows up.  Molly has been there for at least overnight.  It is not exactly clear the time difference from Molly being there to Harry showing up, but it has to be on the order of 12 hours. 

3 - Those are the standard answers.

4 - I lean to Ace because he continued to try to kill Harry...for example he could be the Murphy Car Bomber in WN.

[namkcas]

@bestnemesis,

Things come back 10 years later in this series.  Faith Astor is set to come back at the start of BAT.  You may not have cared, but other's do.  And PG is the book with the least tied up answers in most people's mind.  That is because all of this is recently relevant in the series.  For example, it is where (if we had known) we saw an nFected Maeve.  That and the Black Council are still important enemies.

Finally, Time Travel is a horrible answer in this series.  If I were Harry and I time traveled from the end of the series I would:

1 - Go back in Time and Kill Cowl.
2 - Ditto with Peabody
3 - Same with Arianna
4 - And the rest of the Red Court
5 - And heck while we are at it the Fomor

If you can not see the problem with going back in time, then remember this - if you can...do the "Kill the bad guy" thing before it becomes a problem for Harry.  Why would TT Harry just not wait at Molly's, Kill the Fetches, and move along.  He knows they are showing up.