Was Ascher telling the truth?

[wardenferry419]

I guess I am confused. Are you more interested in the holes within the warden system as a problematic plot device or as an organizational deficiency?

[Mr. Death]

You're still painting the Wardens as this unregulated, unsupervised group. But they are regulated and they are supervised. They're a military command structure -- yes, members operate with a degree of autonomy, but we know from Dresden's experience that they meet together with a fair amount of frequency, they know each other, and they keep each other briefed on their cases and what they're doing.

They are, as Murphy puts it, a bureaucracy. They're not lone-rangers taking the laws into their own hands without anyone to answer to. We know by name at least three people that they can and do answer to.

What we still don't have is an example of a Warden abusing his or her power in the way that you're suggesting is all but inevitable.

[Arjan]

You're still painting the Wardens as this unregulated, unsupervised group. But they are regulated and they are supervised. They're a military command structure -- yes, members operate with a degree of autonomy, but we know from Dresden's experience that they meet together with a fair amount of frequency, they know each other, and they keep each other briefed on their cases and what they're doing.

They are, as Murphy puts it, a bureaucracy. They're not lone-rangers taking the laws into their own hands without anyone to answer to. We know by name at least three people that they can and do answer to.

What we still don't have is an example of a Warden abusing his or her power in the way that you're suggesting is all but inevitable.

Which is not surprising because we have so few examples of everything and what we have is most probably atypical anyway.

It is just that what we know about the structure (no separation of powers, No appeal, fast convictions, trial outcome can be political motivated,...). The circumstances (war, lack of manpower, too many warlocks, gerontocracy, nepotism). And human nature abuse is to be expected. The only question is the scale.

[Mr. Death]

Which is not surprising because we have so few examples of everything and what we have is most probably atypical anyway.

Atypical which way, though?

Most of our perspective is through Dresden, a man who felt hounded by the Wardens in general and Morgan in particular for most of his adult life.

The view we have is skewed -- and for most of the series, it's skewed to see the Wardens as worse than they actually are. And then Harry meets the Wardens and starts working directly with them and, hey, his view has softened considerably since he put on the grey cloak.

That, to me, says that the Wardens are not the boogie-men that Dresden paints them as for the first few books.

It is just that what we know about the structure (no separation of powers, No appeal, fast convictions, trial outcome can be political motivated,...). The circumstances (war, lack of manpower, too many warlocks, gerontocracy, nepotism). And human nature abuse is to be expected. The only question is the scale.

The war was probably a good thing for the Wardens, at least in this respect. It cleared out a lot of the old guard -- the ones who would be the most political, the most hardline, and replaced most of them with younger Wardens like Harry and Carlos. By the end of the war, the Wardens' numbers have increased substantially from the pre-war days, and the vast majority of them are going to be the younger crowd.

Hell, Harry's one of the guys training them these days. AAAA Wizardry's whole framing story is Harry lecturing a class of young Wardens-to-be on how to properly assess, investigate and solve cases.

If anything, the newest crop of Wardens should be a hell of a lot more open and friendly toward the Paranet and the people in it, considering Carlos and Harry are two of the guys directly overseeing and training them and all.

[wardenferry419]

Many of the younger ones might have been on the internet before their magic kicked it. So bonus on knowledge.

[Firestarter]

Warlocks are not human? That is exactly why being branded a warlock is something to be feared by minor talents more so because some wardens can be very creative in explaining the laws when it suits them, see Morgan.

Who did not trust his own system, and he should know.

Who also showed that the white councils attitude to fair trials is not restricted to warlocks. Nobody accused Morgan of being a warlock but he was hooded anyway and had no defense exept for what nepotism brought him. 

We know the warden counted members like Justin so expecting exemplary behaviour from all of them is not realistic. And more important thee is no appeal possible and the whole affair can be finished on site with whoever available.

So much power with so little oversight and no appeal or second opinion is scary. It is not good for people even the best of them.

And what Bob said was not a lie, with that cloack he can.
 

In non-magic human society, people go to jail. There are several aspects of this: Punishment, possible rehabilitation and to separate people, who break the law from people, who don't break the laws.

With black magic, there is the issue of black magic corrupting the mind and soul. Once a magic user does enough bad things, their minds are irreparable. That is the premise we have here. Molly rewired heads of how many people? 2? Note her impulse control issues. And she had very good intentions.

@Arjan: Your whole argument is basically "anarchy for everyone and people will naturally behave well" combined with "Death to the fascist oppressors!". This doesn't hold water in any society for long, Mr. Shoe. If a society is to have rules, there need  be enforcers who make sure that the rules don't get broken. It's plain and simple like that. Why, do you ask? For the very same reason, why communism can't work efficiently and tends to break down eventually. Because of human nature. Most human are naturally selfish creatures, even though during our lives in some civilizations, we learn to behave a lot less selfishly. And yes, there are some people who for one reason or another are fairly little selfish or even not at all. But those are few and far between.

Now, to explain, why it's counterintuitive for wardens to abuse their power:
1) Even talented mages can be born from less talented mages. Therefore if mages wish to live on as a species, they actually need to protect the lesser talents ] ref.: White Night ]. So if one warden would feel like bullying/killing some lesser talents, another warden would feel compelled to stop him.
2) Truly strong people don't feel the need to bully the weak. It may sound like a cliché, but it's also the truth. Because weak people pose no challenge. Strong people became strong by overcoming real challenges. Same thing goes for smart people. And if said person feels pride in his achievements, bullying weak people tarnishes his own self-image.
3) It's one thing to keep people scared of wardens. It keeps them on their toes. Let's say, that a single warden went rogue and his targets don't manage to tell anyone for some reason [ you know, because there are no phones, no Internet, no mail, hell, not even a fire to send smoke signals. ]. I'd like to ask you a few questions, if you don't mind:
a) Why wouldn't the targets simply run away?
b) Holding a hostage is exhausting and you have to keep them alive, if you really, really want to earn your De Sade badge. How do you do this while actually performing your Warden duties?
... and finally...
c) Wardens are not immortal. They are not gods. They may be very powerful but that doesn't mean that they are unbeatable with any other means than magic. And while magic is nifty, I read somewhere, that it's very difficult to cast a spell when someone bashes you over the head or kicks you into a garbage can. So, pray, explain to me: how precisely would said rogue warden make sure that his victims wouldn't stick together, stand up to him and either knock him out or even kill him?

[Arjan]

In non-magic human society, people go to jail. There are several aspects of this: Punishment, possible rehabilitation and to separate people, who break the law from people, who don't break the laws.

With black magic, there is the issue of black magic corrupting the mind and soul. Once a magic user does enough bad things, their minds are irreparable. That is the premise we have here. Molly rewired heads of how many people? 2? Note her impulse control issues. And she had very good intentions.

@Arjan: Your whole argument is basically "anarchy for everyone and people will naturally behave well" combined with "Death to the fascist oppressors!".

That is not my argument at all. There are simply too many people on earth to make a stateless solution possible. We need to live together and that means a structure with law. And also a structure with checks and balances.

The heart of the matter is not that the wardens do something about warlocks, that is necessary. The heart of the matter is that the wardens lack most of the safeguards, checks and balances we want organisations with power to have.

There is no separation of police and justice system. There is no appeal, no defence apart from what nepotism can give you and some wardens can go on unsupervised for quite some time.

It is precisely because I have no illusions about human nature and because a job with the wardens will already attract violent people that I am concerned.

Justin was a warden. Harry can write in his reports whatever he likes and he does. Morgan can abuse his power and trials can be politically motivated show trials. It is simply not good enough for an organisation with that much power.

This doesn't hold water in any society for long, Mr. Shoe. If a society is to have rules, there need  be enforcers who make sure that the rules don't get broken. It's plain and simple like that. Why, do you ask? For the very same reason, why communism can't work efficiently and tends to break down eventually.

Which communism are we talking about? Stalin was very good in enforcing his rules. He did not have those pesky checks and balances though.

Most dissidents were not economically motivated. They had problems with living in a state that had no respect for human rights, no separation of powers, no safeguards against any abuse of power by the (secret) police.

Because of human nature. Most human are naturally selfish creatures, even though during our lives in some civilizations, we learn to behave a lot less selfishly. And yes, there are some people who for one reason or another are fairly little selfish or even not at all. But those are few and far between.

Now, to explain, why it's counterintuitive for wardens would abuse their power:
1) Even talented mages can be born from less talented mages. Therefore if mages wish to live on as a species, they actually need to protect the lesser talents ] ref.: White Night ]. So if one warden would feel like bullying/killing some lesser talents, another warden would feel compelled to stop him.
2) Truly strong people don't feel the need to bully the weak. It may sound like a cliché, but it's also the truth. Because weak people pose no challenge. Strong people became strong by overcoming real challenges. Same thing goes for smart people. And if said person feels pride in his achievements, bullying weak people tarnishes his own self-image.
3) It's one thing to keep people scared of wardens. It keeps them on their toes. Let's say, that a single warden went rogue and his targets don't manage to tell anyone for some reason [ you know, because there are no phones, no Internet, no mail, hell, not even a fire to send smoke signals. ]. I'd like to ask you a few questions, if you don't mind:
a) Why wouldn't the targets simply run away?
b) Holding a hostage is exhausting and you have to keep them alive, if you really, really want to earn your De Sade badge. How do you do this while actually performing your Warden duties?
... and finally...
c) Wardens are not immortal. They are not gods. They may be very powerful but that doesn't mean that they are unbeatable with any other means than magic. And while magic is nifty, I read somewhere, that it's very difficult to cast a spell when someone bashes you ever the head or kicks you into a garbage can. So, pray, explain to me: how precisely would said rogue warden make sure that his victims wouldn't stick together, stand up to him and either knock him out or even kill him?

I know it is bad for the wardens to abuse their power. It is bad for government and all their institutions to abuse their power, it undermines their legitimacy and it reduces the will of the population to work with the authorities even if it is to everyone's benefit. Nevertheless it happens and it happens precisely because of human nature. A lot of people are not that good in handling power. So every organisation should have mechanisms in place to prevent abuse of power and to repair its consequences. History and actuality tells us it is necessary.

The wardens do not have enough of that.

[Firestarter]

Which communism are we talking about? Stalin was very good in enforcing his rules. He did not have those pesky checks and balances though.

Stalin was simply a tyrant who used a certain political situation to his advantage.

As for dissidents, plenty were motivated politically, plenty were motivated financially. And many were used as tools from outside and then discarded.

It is precisely because I have no illusions about human nature and because a job with the wardens will already attract violent people that I am concerned.

Justin was a warden. Harry can write in his reports whatever he likes and he does. Morgan can abuse his power and trials can be politically motivated show trials. It is simply not good enough for an organisation with that much power.

Well Justin's situation wasn't yet well explained, but I doubt that he had been a warden when he adopted Harry. It seems to me like he had retired from the job before starting to build a secret starborn army. Otherwise it's unlikely, that there would have been no visits.

If you have a military force that is tasked with fighting monsters and protecting your people, of course you need them to be somewhat violent. The funny part is that most normal people who are often in contact with violence tend to yearn for peace.

And I'm pretty sure that torturing less talented people would end up as at least being worth of some jail-time in warden prisons.

As it has been mentioned, wardens are called cops by Harry, but they most definitely aren't the equivalent of Magical Cops [ ^TM with a transformation sequence in each episode ]. They are soldiers. They don't police people's everyday lives. They step in only if one of the laws of magic have been broken. And occasionally wave fingers at people.

I know it is bad for the wardens to abuse their power. It is bad for government and all their institutions to abuse their power, it undermines their legitimacy and it reduces the will of the population to work with the authorities even if it is to everyone's benefit. Nevertheless it happens and it happens precisely because of human nature. A lot of people are not that good in handling power. So every organisation should have mechanisms in place to prevent abuse of power and to repair its consequences. History and actuality tells us it is necessary.

The wardens do not have enough of that.

Hmmm... I disagree. You don't need to double-check every case a warden fills his paperwork on, it's enough if you check on a random few cases of each warden. I mean, yes, we don't have many details on how wardens' work days look like but from what we could observe, Wardens mostly operate in groups, or at least in pairs. We've seen only Morgan, Harry and Carlos operate without another warden. And Morgan did this only in Storm Front iirc. Normally they always have some kind of backup. Even Harry has someone, usually, although it's usually not a warden.

With random checks or some kind of "After care", chances for foul play decrease.

And... frankly, while you need people who are violent, or at least don't mind being a little tough every now and then, you don't want insane sadistic assholes in your army. Because those assholes may decide to turn against you one day.

[wardenferry419]

We have said that wardens are similar to cops and soldiers. How about another group that closely resembles Wardens. I was thinking of U.S. Marshals.

[Firestarter]

Hm... possible. I don't know enough about US Marshals to comment further.

[wardenferry419]

Well, cops have precincts they are stationed at and tend to be localized power. Soldiers tend to function in units. But, marshals, specifically Wild West marshals, seem to have broader, government-based authority. Just a thought.

[Firestarter]

Well... the Wild West wasn't really the _Wild_ west we see in movies and read about in books.

But I guess I can see your point.

Also: "When you have 1 wizard, you have a wizard. With any higher number of wizards, you'll get an argument."

[wardenferry419]

And that leads to bureaucracy where nothing gets done.

[Firestarter]

Oh, I don't know... when writing software you also write entries about logging. I don't see clerks working faster than computers it's all about the design and efficiency. And that can be calculated before implementing anything.

[wardenferry419]

I would say that I have reluctant acceptance of most organizational authority. Don't like it but understand its necessity.