Was Ascher telling the truth?

[LordDresden2]

I think she was very much telling the truth.  She killed with magic her rapists and the Wardens wanted to arrest her and ultimately behead her for being a warlock.  This made her run, this made her bitter against the White Council.  She wasn't wrong there, the same fate was waiting for young Harry save he had a unknown grandfather in high places who was willing to defend him and stand with him under the Doom...

I suspect she was telling the truth...but maybe not the complete truth, and maybe a funhouse mirror version of it.

For ex, the Council does recognize self-defense exceptions to the First Law.  Did she kill her rapists in the process of defending herself...or in revenge for the assault?  Did she use magic to try to defend herself...or did she go past self-defense into something else?

Of course there's always the issue of whether she was believed or not, Harry was acting in self-defense but the truth of his claims were doubted.  But then again, Harry himself notes that Eb was not the only member of the Council who had sided with him, either.  How much of Harry's problem was Morgan's obsessions?

Hannah's case is not necessarily a binary "Telling the truth or lying" thing.  She could be telling the truth and the matter still not be entirely as she describes it.  The more so with Lasciel whispering in her head...

[Dina]

I read the title of this thread a few times and then came to see if it was about Archer after all 

I think she had the coin for a while, and I belived her main story but some details are probably added at hoc in Harry's benefit.

[Mira]

For ex, the Council does recognize self-defense exceptions to the First Law.  Did she kill her rapists in the process of defending herself...or in revenge for the assault?  Did she use magic to try to defend herself...or did she go past self-defense into something else?

They do, but without a good advocate what chance does the accused really have?  When Harry was dragged before the Council to be judged, he was a scared kid with a hood over his head, they spoke in Latin, he didn't understand a word of it.  What chance did he really to defend himself if Eb hadn't come forth?   Given the recent history of the Council and the attitude of the Merlin, Hannah would have had no chance... And there is also this, how much knowledge of the Council and her rights did she have?   If she only had rumor to go by, of course she ran...  Harry was totally ignorant of both the Laws and the Council..  In my opinion if he had a clue at all he too would have ran.

Of course there's always the issue of whether she was believed or not, Harry was acting in self-defense but the truth of his claims were doubted.  But then again, Harry himself notes that Eb was not the only member of the Council who had sided with him, either.  How much of Harry's problem was Morgan's obsessions?

His problems with Morgan came later because he was of the same mind as the Merlin that potential warlocks once they've crossed the line cannot be reformed.  It is unclear how much they sided with Harry, they were mostly afraid of this kid with so much raw power that he could take out a former Warden in a duel.

Hannah's case is not necessarily a binary "Telling the truth or lying" thing.  She could be telling the truth and the matter still not be entirely as she describes it.  The more so with Lasciel whispering in her head...

Oh I think it can be the truth and exactly as she described it down to her bitterness after her friends died..  The question is more about what happened after that.   Here is my theory, Andriel sees and hears everything, so through him, Nic would be aware of Hannah and her plight.   Nic also knows that Lasciel was rejected by Harry and is none too happy about it.  So from there I don't think it would be too hard for him to arrange "contact" between Lasciel's coin and Hannah..  We know how good she is at twisting the mind, we saw what she was able to do as "Sheila" to Harry in Dead Beat, only he was saved by Butters pointing out there was no Sheila.  He was saved by that and the fact he had had an earlier soul gaze with a Denarian in Death Masks and didn't want any part of that club.  So it isn't too hard to believe Lasciel could manipulate someone already angry and very bitter with promises of revenge for her friends.

[Kindler]

Anger and indignation like what Hannah showed usually comes from genuine persecution. I believe it happened as she described, which is why she is so bitter; she defended herself, and was unjustly hunted for it. I'm not even sure she meant to kill the Wardens when they found her; fire is not delicate. But her persecution complex made her a perfect target for Nicodemus. Whether or not it happened exactly as she detailed is up for debate, but I believe she truly believed that's how it was, if that made sense.

My real question is why the Genoskwa signed up. Dude already had tons of power with no obligation. What did he have to gain by chaining himself to Ursiel? What did he want to destroy that he couldn't on his own?

[Mr. Death]

I don't think the Genoskwa was thinking about it in those kinds of terms. He just wants more power to destroy things.

You could ask the same about money. What can you buy with $10 billion that you can't with 9? Nothing, really, and yet people who have that kind of money are always trying to get more.

[Snark Knight]

My real question is why the Genoskwa signed up. Dude already had tons of power with no obligation. What did he have to gain by chaining himself to Ursiel? What did he want to destroy that he couldn't on his own?

He probably didn't see it as chaining himself. From a certain point of view, it might look like additional freedom.

For all his raw power, there were probably still some sort of restrictions on what the Genoskwa could do with his power on his own. Every supernatural nation we've seen seems bound by its own internal codes, and balances of power with its neighbours. The Bigfoots seem to be pretty strongly isolationist on the topic of not drawing attention - I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of his hate for River Shoulders was due to resenting that the "lotus eaters" could and would gang up on him if he indulged himself too far against humanity.

Joining the Denarians is really only 'chaining yourself' if you don't like their core objectives. If you're supportive or neutral to their overarching mission, wearing their hat instead of the one you were born with gives you a certain degree of latitude to indulge in bloodlust without blowback from your birth nation.

[wardenferry419]

The Bigfoots seem to have peaceful natures, not prone to violence or anger. Not to say that they never fight; but, are very reluctant to get dark. But, every once and a while, some is born with a tendency to go against the grain and be a real A$$H@\E.

[isoycrazy]

I believe Geno and River shoulders are different sects of their species.  Like winter to summer fae.

[Rasins]

I tend to agree with Mira here.

I'll add that if you are accused of killing someone in self defense, then you kill some cops because you are afraid they are going to kill you, you won't get a second chance.  You will be taken out.

I see the council doing the same thing when their cops are killed by someone. 

[wardenferry419]

Agreed, and more so since it involves magic.

[LordDresden2]

I tend to agree with Mira here.

I'll add that if you are accused of killing someone in self defense, then you kill some cops because you are afraid they are going to kill you, you won't get a second chance.  You will be taken out.

I see the council doing the same thing when their cops are killed by someone.

That's part of what I mean when I say I think she's likely telling the truth, but not necessarily all of it.  We have her version, which I suspect is basically true, but not necessarily the whole truth.

[wardenferry419]

Like the 4 blind guys describing an elephant by touch, everything is POV. Though, I hate to be the blind guy who gets the rear-end.

[Arjan]

I tend to agree with Mira here.

I'll add that if you are accused of killing someone in self defense, then you kill some cops because you are afraid they are going to kill you,

You know they are going to kill you mostly without a trial and sometimes with a show trial without any proper defense. There is a difference.

you won't get a second chance.  You will be taken out.

I see the council doing the same thing when their cops are killed by someone.

Sure but that does not make her tale not true. Those cops are just vigilantes recognized by no proper state on earth anyway. It is all self defense. Maybe self defense with excessive force but knowing how trigger happy the wardens are and how practically non existent the rehabilitation options are and how normal capital punishment is you can not expect anyone hunted by the wardens to turn herself in and not to act like a cornered animal.

That does not mean the wardens are necessarily wrong but it has nothing to do with morality, justice or even law. More with magical health control eradicating everything that can be a risk.

It can be defended because law breakers usually become big problems later but it is also a self fulfilling prophesy, this kind of hunting will drive people over the edge in the arms of people like Nicodemus or Lord Raith.

[Bacchus]

wait im trying to remember wasnt Aschers attackers 3 vanilla mortal thugs and she already knew how to wield a decent bit of power.

 That is completely different than if she was defending against a warden of the white council who had been wielding magic for many decades as dresden did.
didn't Dresden mention in ghost story how he would laugh at all the high school bullies because it would be so ridiculously easy for him to destroy them.

a few sparks thrown at their faces would have scared off the rapists or she could have just halfway burned them to death then slit their throats.

id say its probably true but it would have been very easy for her to survive without killing with magic and wouldn't fall under self defense with magic.
 The exemption is only for the most extreme of cases.

also with geno maybe he was the some weakling emo bigfoot and the only reason he was so scary was because of the coin

[wardenferry419]

I don't think we will ever get Hannah's whole story. Bad stuff happens in every life. Elaine took her bad stuff and became a detective. Murphy took her father's death and became a cop. Hannah took her bad stuff and became a destroyer.