Author Topic: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?  (Read 10162 times)

Offline groinkick

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Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« on: October 04, 2017, 05:42:54 PM »
In Changes, on the surface we saw Harry, and his band of friends fight the Red Court, save his daughter, and slay the Red Court.  This was all on the surface.  However I'm pretty sure there were possibly some things that happened off screen.  There was a lot of time that Harry was not with his allies, meaning they could have been doing their own thing.

First who was invested in this fight?

TWG - KoTC involved
Mab - Her right hand was there
Grey Council/probably White Council Senior members
Venatori?  Thomas was there as Harry's brother but I would not be at all surprised if he was also there in an official capacity for the Venatori
Odin  - He plans way far out in advance.  He recognized the importance of this conflict and got involved...  It was a big deal
Blackstaff was there

I know I know some will think that Eb abuses his position or whatever.  However he may have also been there not only to help Harry, but in an official capacity as the Blackstaff to strike down those who were using the laws of magic against the White Council.  The Black Council was almost there for sure.

So with all these forces in one place it makes me wonder if there were also Fallen, Old Ones, Outsiders, and more on the opposite side.  Thomas may have done things behind the scenes that we aren't aware of.  Same for Leah, the Grey Council, Odin, and KoTC.

Think there could be something to this, or am I looking too much into it?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 05:48:35 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline peregrine

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2017, 05:50:19 PM »
Don't forget the Chicago PD.  They had one of their department heads on the scene.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2017, 05:52:05 PM »
Don't forget the Chicago PD.  They had one of their department heads on the scene.
lol... 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2017, 07:00:15 PM »
We saw only a small portion of that battle.

Don't forget that there were "vanilla" mortals there too.  Both Mercs and sacrifices.

Once the Reds were killed and the half-rampires were turned, and started aging and the like, there were still others there who were fighting for their lives.
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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2017, 07:32:34 PM »
Well, we clearly know from the words uttered through Murphy's lips that there were angelic forces at work, forces that had likely gently influenced events in order that the Red Court would be destroyed. TWG works that way, manipulating one group of people to be the executors of judgement for another.

Yes, the gray council was there. And if you believe that they're made up of a group of good people fighting for good and right things, then it's pretty surface. On the other hand, if you believe they're more than what they appear, it becomes an act of removing one patsy who wasn't toeing the line and replacing it with another, and a desperate attempt to save the life of their leader.  Or, if you believe that Dresden has other living family, it becomes, I dunno, an effort to save Merlin trapped in Demonreach and clearly being the keystone that holds it all together.

Or something.

Mab's the interesting one. The Reds are signatories of the accords, and you wouldn't think that Lea could indulge herself if the Reds hadn't offered them any insult.  Either the act of Harry being Winter Knight meant that the past-tense act of kidnapping his daughter became a declaration of war, or it's a "if you're not alive to complain, I can get away with it" sort of deal.

Offline Bacchus

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2017, 06:50:23 AM »
First the whole point of the ritual was to kill mortals with magic. Those mortals being a senior council member and the most powerful wizard of the younger generation.
if the black staff didn't do something that would almost be negligence on his part.

second remember the reds using the ways without permission counted as a declaration of war and the white council were astonished that the fey did nothing. Not only that they summoned outsiders in mass into fey territory which we now know would have particularly infuriated the fey.  Its just that immortals see time differently.  To Mab this was probably a rather quick response.


 The part that blows my mind is that the ritual was one of the dumbest things the reds could do.

 They know for a fact that when Ortega went after Dresden in a underhanded manner a satellite crashed and destroyed everything for hundreds of yards around his house.
That was meant to be an example, so yes they know it wasn't random.

So their great plan is to go after Dresden in a underhanded manner while gathering all of their strongest members and almost all of their weaker ones within a couple hundred yards.
they were not even particularly secretive about the fact that they were all gathering there.  With the senior councils information gathering ability its almost a sure thing that they would find out.
Thats the main reason i think their was some more important goal than killing Ebeneezer.  If their wasn't the red court would have died out long ago from similar stupid plans.

Also thats my theory on what Merlin meant when he said they were going to exterminate the reds. Drop a satellite on the pyramid and mop up the survivors with wardens and senior council. Maggie being their messed up that plan because only Ebeneezer could drop the satellite.

Offline Froklsnt

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2017, 12:55:37 PM »
I think it's a lock that Mab had an interest, because the Reds have made a habit of summoning Outsiders while on the ways through Faerie to aid them in battle with the WCW. That is a significant insult to Mab in my eyes. Careless too, and undermining of her war efforts. The reds also play into the founding conspiracy of the series somehow, with the schemes around creating a starborn, which ultimately led to Harry. Ariana's presence at that dinner with Lord Raith, Maggie, and Eb is evidence enough to convince me of that. Whether that conspiracy is the same thing as the Circle or BC or Nemesis remains to be seen, but it is certainly another major dark center of power, however it identifies.

Offline Aminar

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2017, 01:01:55 PM »
I think we saw the important bits. I don't think the RAMPS expected to need outsiders for that fight, and if there were some there we'd have heard about it. Politically there is kind of more, but for the most part I doubt it's an Arctis Tor Scenario.

Offline SerScot

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2017, 01:08:22 PM »
Don't forget the Chicago PD.  They had one of their department heads on the scene.

No, not during Changes.  Murphy was demoted between Proven Guilty and White Night.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2017, 06:01:02 PM »
Mab's the interesting one. The Reds are signatories of the accords, and you wouldn't think that Lea could indulge herself if the Reds hadn't offered them any insult.  Either the act of Harry being Winter Knight meant that the past-tense act of kidnapping his daughter became a declaration of war, or it's a "if you're not alive to complain, I can get away with it" sort of deal.

I'd say that providing Leah with Nemesis infection under the rules of hospitality, and the reds defending her was reason for her to drop the hammer.  I even think Leah mentioned taking her revenge on those members in Changes.  So they appear to have been involved.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Drikonn

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2017, 05:41:59 PM »
Well...Eb was there because they were trying to kill him too, technically. Don’t think it counts as abuse of power in that case.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2017, 06:41:35 PM »
Well...Eb was there because they were trying to kill him too, technically. Don’t think it counts as abuse of power in that case.

Eb was there, BUT he used the Blackstaff.  I guess technically by using a curse to kill people, that is using magic law against the Council (the Council cannot use this kind of magic as it requires human sacrifices).  I think that might be the case anyways.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Drikonn

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2017, 07:12:22 PM »
It also seems to me that the Blackstaff can do just about whatever the hell he wants. Part of having a deniable asset is that you don’t want to know what they’re doing most of the time.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2017, 07:15:38 PM »
It also seems to me that the Blackstaff can do just about whatever the hell he wants. Part of having a deniable asset is that you don’t want to know what they’re doing most of the time.

Yeah.  This debate has been hashed out, and not looking to have it again, at least not on this subject.  So I will leave it at that ;)
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline dspringer1

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Re: Changes battle, we only saw the surface?
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2017, 08:25:09 PM »
Quote
The part that blows my mind is that the ritual was one of the dumbest things the reds could do.

 They know for a fact that when Ortega went after Dresden in a underhanded manner a satellite crashed and destroyed everything for hundreds of yards around his house.
That was meant to be an example, so yes they know it wasn't random.

So their great plan is to go after Dresden in a underhanded manner while gathering all of their strongest members and almost all of their weaker ones within a couple hundred yards.
they were not even particularly secretive about the fact that they were all gathering there.  With the senior councils information gathering ability its almost a sure thing that they would find out.
Thats the main reason i think their was some more important goal than killing Ebeneezer.  If their wasn't the red court would have died out long ago from similar stupid plans.

Ok so let's argue the value of the ritual.
* The initiator of the ritual is Arianna, not the Red King.   She needed something public, something dramatic and something deadly.   The ritual was way over the top, but that is what her power struggled called for if she was to overthrow the Red King.   And she probably had the support of a lot of the Lords of Outer Night behind her --enough that the Red King dare not squash it. 

*  The Red King, once Arianna is dead, also needed something dramatic.  It is unlikely he would have kicked off the ritual himself, but if Arianna did  - utilizing the ritual himself makes perfect sense.   So the Red King would not have been in some hurry to end the ritual.  He needed the ritual to shore up his support as well for almost the same reasons as Arianna. 

*  Consolidating all the Red Court together in one place is not that major a risk.  They disabled a lot of the White Council already.  The Lords of Outer Night were no doubt on guard against some kind of magical assault (falling satellite for example) and would not be killed by such an act.   The Lords of Outer Night could swat that satelite out of the sky in an instant.  Maybe the Fellowship could have hidden a nuclear bomb at the site and blown them all up -- but outside of that scenario it is hard to see how the Red Court would have been seriously threatened.   After all, even with the surpise intervention of three knights of the cross, at least one minor god (odin), an army of Kenku, leah, the new winter knight,  and some of the biggest heavy hitters on the council --- the white council was clearly loosing.  And that was without the lords of the outer night playing a significant role in most of the battle.    The conditions that allowed Harry to win were real "threading the needle in the middle of a hurricane" type conditions. 

*  The value of the kills is huge.   Killing Harry and you kill the boogieman scary enough to cause red court vampires to run away in battle -- and whose death would allow the red court leadership to end the premature war now and finish off the council in 30 years.   Killing Eb destroys the most powerful war wizard in the white council and likely destabilizes the leadership of the white council. 

*  Further more, it is possible that the curse would be so powerful that it shatters the wards around Edinburgh when it takes out Eb.  It would take the white council weeks or months to repair those wards.   I can totally see the Red court celebrating victory when they complete the ritual and then spending the very next night attacking Edinburgh.   The vamps are running an a victory high and the wizards are sickened, scared and demoralized.    They obviously could not count on Eb being there, but it would be a nice bonus.  Even if the ritual did not crack the wards, the momentum they would get from these events would probably allow the Red Court to break the White council in weeks. 

So big upside, little chance for downside.   Why not do it.     

I do agree that the Reds should have stationed a lot more guards around the trigger, but remember the logic that Bob said.  Unless you sacrifice a red court vamp on the alter, it is hard to see how the ritual could hurt the red court.   And almost the entire Lords of Outer Night were there to defend the ritual when Harry got there.   

I do agree it was arrogant for the Red Court to create such a weapon that another could take from their hand.  But the United States builds nuclear bombs and there is always a remote chance that somebody could steal one and use it against us.   We still build them because the bombs are damn useful in the right circumstances so we accept the small risk.   At the end of the day, the Reds did not think anybody had a real chance to take their weapon and they died because they were wrong.