Was there a Dragon in Changes?

[phi1601]

Oh, just from the title I thought this would be about one of the Grey Council members being a dragon.
There are still four members we haven't met yet (or at least there were at the time of Changes).

[Mr. Death]

A dragon may not mind a supernatural nation making use of the surface above his home, especially if he gets to benefit from all the sacrifices that they conduct there.  If you assume that there is a Dragon there, some of the energy that they were generating may have gone to him, even if they weren't aware of it or didn't intend for that to take place.

How would it benefit from sacrifices to something else entirely? We haven't seen anything in the series that indicates sacrifices work in that fashion, that you could sacrifice something to one deity and another -- that the sacrificer is totally unaware of -- gets some of the benefit.

The Red Court wasn't "making use of" the site. They outright claimed it as their seat of power. Dragons do not just complacently let something else come to their territory and go, "This is mine now." That alone would've been an incinerating offense.

Why would a Dragon not notice that probably the biggest world-wide spell was going on over its head? Why would a Dragon not notice a war happening on top of it?

We don't know much about Dragons, but what we do know indicates they're not nearly this complacent about things happening right on top of them. In this case, the absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If a Dragon was there, we would have seen it in action.

[Kindler]

I always pinned that on the sudden lack of Peabody's influence on proceedings, plus the Merlin perhaps overcompensating in making up for that influence.

That, and I think the Merlin had political motivations, too; Cristos was the one pushing reconciliation in front of the Council, and it seemed clear that the Merlin doesn't trust him. I got the feeling Arthur knows the guy is another turncoat, and was trying to sweep his legs out from under him to prevent him from getting a political victory—while also securing a tactical one for himself.

God, I can't wait for the political crosstalk in Peace Talks.

[jonas]

How would it benefit from sacrifices to something else entirely? We haven't seen anything in the series that indicates sacrifices work in that fashion, that you could sacrifice something to one deity and another -- that the sacrificer is totally unaware of -- gets some of the benefit.

Rawhead actually? That's precisely what they do with the butcher being none the wiser.

The Red Court wasn't "making use of" the site. They outright claimed it as their seat of power. Dragons do not just complacently let something else come to their territory and go, "This is mine now." That alone would've been an incinerating offense.

Why would a Dragon not notice that probably the biggest world-wide spell was going on over its head? Why would a Dragon not notice a war happening on top of it?

We don't know much about Dragons, but what we do know indicates they're not nearly this complacent about things happening right on top of them. In this case, the absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If a Dragon was there, we would have seen it in action.

[Mr. Death]

Rawhead actually? That's precisely what they do with the butcher being none the wiser.

The butcher isn't dedicating those animals as sacrifices to anything. The Rawhead just grabs the dead flesh, as I recall.

And even if the Dragon was gaining power from it, you don't think it would've shown up to defend this supposed source of power when it was under attack?

Let's be real here -- if there was a Dragon anywhere near Chichen Itza, there are a dozen reasons it should have shown itself during the huge, apocalyptic battle taking place over the huge, apocalyptic spell that was being prepared. The fact that no such thing occurred means that there just plain was not a Dragon involved.

[jonas]

The butcher isn't dedicating those animals as sacrifices to anything. The Rawhead just grabs the dead flesh, as I recall.

exactly, plus a little power from each animal. Proof an intent isn't required for someone to gain from a 'sacrifice'/death. iirc Rawhead spirits themselves form around such places itself, they don't just collect the corpses. No preexisting entities.

And even if the Dragon was gaining power from it, you don't think it would've shown up to defend this supposed source of power when it was under attack?

Let's be real here -- if there was a Dragon anywhere near Chichen Itza, there are a dozen reasons it should have shown itself during the huge, apocalyptic battle taking place over the huge, apocalyptic spell that was being prepared. The fact that no such thing occurred means that there just plain was not a Dragon involved.

[Drikonn]

You gotta look for the man behind the curtain with all of Dresden’s enemies. Who’s to say that CI isn’t the home of a dragon that was using the Red Court for its own ends? Jim is a self-proclaimed lazy writer and it’s very much his style to drop little things like that way in advance. I could totally see Harry having to go back and having crazy amounts of PTSD

[Mr. Death]

You gotta look for the man behind the curtain with all of Dresden’s enemies. Who’s to say that CI isn’t the home of a dragon that was using the Red Court for its own ends? Jim is a self-proclaimed lazy writer and it’s very much his style to drop little things like that way in advance. I could totally see Harry having to go back and having crazy amounts of PTSD

Again: Why didn't he show up?

If a Dragon made CI its home and was using the Red Court, why didn't it show up to protect its home and its investment?

There isn't any hint to a Dragon. He didn't "drop" anything. There's a vague description of the leyline having old power, but nothing that suggests a Dragon has anything to do with it.

[Drikonn]

For any number of reasons. The time wasn’t right, it was just a small piece of a larger picture, a Xanatos Gambit. There’s lots of reasons why not. It could also be that it was asleep or wounded or otherwise couldn’t appear.

[Mr. Death]

For any number of reasons. The time wasn’t right, it was just a small piece of a larger picture, a Xanatos Gambit. There’s lots of reasons why not. It could also be that it was asleep or wounded or otherwise couldn’t appear.

The fight was happening right on its doorstep. Some people are suggesting it had an active benefit from the Red Court, or was even helping it.

That's the kind of fight you show up to.

There's no suggestion a Dragon is involved. Hell, there's no suggestion of a Dragon being involved at any point in the decade of Red Court war. And we would know. A Dragon is something that could take on Mab. If a Dragon were in the Red Court's corner, they would have won.

And frankly, I don't see how it adds to the series or the battle to have a Dragon "behind the scenes" apparently doing not a damn thing for the place that's supposedly its home turf.

Seriously, the threads these days are like someone is throwing darts at a board filled with random nouns from the series. "Hm, Peace Talks still isn't out, but we need something to talk to... so I wonder if... *toss, THUNK* a Dragon was at ... *toss, THUNK* Chichen Itza!"

[Drikonn]

Almost as if these are...wild ass guesses?

[wardenferry419]

Lack of new traction keeps old wheels spinning?

[jonas]

Again, consider 1 the source of the ley lines from DR
2 Consider that Dragons sleeping for centuries under the land is actually a common myth(iirc both Britain and Scotland both have such myths) and Quetzalcoatl, the origin of Kulkan translates as feathered serpent(aka winged)
3 Such dragons are known to only awaken and raise the land for specific, apocalyptic events.
4 that we KNOW a dragon battle is in one Wizards future as well as a Kaiju book event
I don't find it such an alien idea, perhaps little evidence, but that's an intentional thing in 'mystery' books. The overarc in DF is all about mystery and puzzling your way through it. There's plenty of things that we accept as 'factual' that have just as little evidence *cough*Simon*cough*.
Wish ppl would actually study theory and premise itself instead of basing it on sheer perspective.. Because there isn't ANY evidence it's wrong. So your making the same logical leap to decide 'what is' that he's attempting to put as what could be. Neither side in such a platform has an advantage really, but I know it's impossible to na say something into Oblivion, this isn't Merlin starring Sam Neil....
*oh and moving rivers and landscaping is exactly what Woj says Dragons could do, so that part I actually like.

[Mr. Death]

The thing is, when there's a hint, there's a hint. There's nothing in the passage quoted that mentions anything about Dragons. It just says old power. The power on Demonreach is old power, and has nothing to do with Dragons.

Speaking of Demonreach, when it was first introduced, the "mystery" was obvious. Harry noticed things that had nothing to do with the Denarians, and then he asked someone about it. That's what Jim does when he presents a mystery for later -- Harry notices it and notices that it's odd. There's some nod by Harry that something's up.

And how about Vadderung? He knew a hell of a lot about the place. He knew it was the Red Court's seat of power. He makes it his business to know things. You don't think he would've mentioned there being a Dragon involved if it was at all possible?

Also, Harry used the power of that leyline. If he grabbed onto a Dragon's power, the Dragon would have noticed. Harry didn't notice anything that made him question the power and want to look into it later, it was simply a power source he used, and then was depleted immediately after.

[jonas]

The thing is, when there's a hint, there's a hint. There's nothing in the passage quoted that mentions anything about Dragons. It just says old power. The power on Demonreach is old power, and has nothing to do with Dragons.

The Ley lines come from literal creatures trapped in Dr... proof body heat can create a ley line.

Speaking of Demonreach, when it was first introduced, the "mystery" was obvious. Harry noticed things that had nothing to do with the Denarians, and then he asked someone about it. That's what Jim does when he presents a mystery for later -- Harry notices it and notices that it's odd. There's some nod by Harry that something's up.

Harry doesn't say anything about the old chapel and circle of tree's in Marcone's yard being the same mixture of Christianity and Celtic religion that Arthur ruled his throne with. Apparently you have to find the hints and interpret them yourself? Go figure right?

And how about Vadderung? He knew a hell of a lot about the place. He knew it was the Red Court's seat of power. He makes it his business to know things. You don't think he would've mentioned there being a Dragon involved if it was at all possible?

Vadd doesn't generally offer such info without a price.. How much did he even really offer on DR?

Also, Harry used the power of that leyline. If he grabbed onto a Dragon's power, the Dragon would have noticed. Harry didn't notice anything that made him question the power and want to look into it later, it was simply a power

Sleeping dragon who only comes out for purpose awakens and rages because a ley line was accessed? It's his body heat, not pulling out his soul and drinking it down to fuel your spell,
Also Harry knows what the Ley lines on DR come from, didn't stop him in CD, friends did. Looking at or feeling or even using a power doesn't give you a direct link with it's source, a hint at it certainly.