What if it isn't just power over Outsiders?

[groinkick]

Harry was told that being a Starborn gave him power over Outsiders.  What if that was just partially true, but didn't include that he has power over more than just that?  What got me thinking about it was the thread about conjuring Harry is more dangerous for you, than him, and Jim saying that it isn't dangerous for Harry's Name being known as it is for others. 

Another thing is that Harry seemed to defeat Mother Winter in a battle of will's I think?  He doesn't have her absolute raw power, but in a battle of will, I think he won.  Also his battle with Ortega, again a battle of will, and Harry was going to win.  Then when Before was in Harry's mind, Harry won that battle of will as well... 

In much of the dresdenverse, belief is real power.  Perhaps ones will can bend reality as much as the combined belief of lots of people.  Harry's Starborn gift may be an unshakable will that puts him on par with the most powerful Being's out there.  He just needs to tap into it more, like when he faced Before.

[Smaug with OCD]

Harry was told that being a Starborn gave him power over Outsiders.  What if that was just partially true, but didn't include that he has power over more than just that?  What got me thinking about it was the thread about conjuring Harry is more dangerous for you, than him, and Jim saying that it isn't dangerous for Harry's Name being known as it is for others. 

Huh, I hadn't seen or heard about this WoJ. Nifty. Though, admittedly, I get the feeling we're going to see why we shouldn't conjure by Harry's name when the series hits Mirror Mirror.

Another thing is that Harry seemed to defeat Mother Winter in a battle of will's I think?  He doesn't have her absolute raw power, but in a battle of will, I think he won.  Also his battle with Ortega, again a battle of will, and Harry was going to win.  Then when Before was in Harry's mind, Harry won that battle of will as well... 

There was soulfire involved here. I'm not sure this counts as a mere "battle of wills."

In much of the dresdenverse, belief is real power.  Perhaps ones will can bend reality as much as the combined belief of lots of people.

Isn't this kind of the definition of a wizard?

Harry's Starborn gift may be an unshakable will that puts him on par with the most powerful Being's out there.  He just needs to tap into it more, like when he faced Before.

I think his strength of will is more a result of Harry just being... well, Harry. It's who he is, even outside of wielding magic.

I will agree with you, though, that there's probably something more to the whole "Starborn" thing. That being said, I have no idea what it is.

[wardenferry419]

I think Mother Winter was not exerting her full power of will during that battle. I think that she was merely annoyed  by the call and wanted to test Harry a little.

[Snark Knight]

I think Mother Winter was not exerting her full power of will during that battle. I think that she was merely annoyed  by the call and wanted to test Harry a little.

A little bit of a test, a little bit of training to prepare him to challenge a Walker. I don't think very much that the Mothers do or say is ever just one thing.

I think the Starborn thing is about more than Outsiders exclusively, though. Specifically, I think Uriel being genuinely frightened at Harry nicknaming him was a clue along those lines.

[kazimmoinuddin]

For some reason, I believe Harry will possibly join the three walkers into one host. While they could be more powerful, I also believe they would be more vulnerable. So either properly killed, locked in the well or banished far beyond the outer gates.

[jonas]

A little bit of a test, a little bit of training to prepare him to challenge a Walker. I don't think very much that the Mothers do or say is ever just one thing.

I think the Starborn thing is about more than Outsiders exclusively, though. Specifically, I think Uriel being genuinely frightened at Harry nicknaming him was a clue along those lines.

Ahh, but what if the biggest difference between outsider and angel is the identity here in the prime plain? Angel's are supposed to be immutable, not even N can effect them, but what if that's because N is simply another brand of fallen Angel? the comparison would be Naagloshi to fallen as Fallen are to Nemesis. Different order, different origin.
***Either way Uriel was afraid of Harry doing something to him even N cannot do, that should tell you something right there. Not only is his thing Bastions of Will and immovable mindsets, but he can enforce this on Anything by proxy. From his mortal friends he's continually empowered to be more, to Bob right up to Uri, who a mere handful of years later transubstantiates and takes mortal life... All effected by the Starborn flavor to his mortal Aura.

[groinkick]

Isn't this kind of the definition of a wizard?

Yes but I'm thinking that Harry may become to a wizard what a wizard is to a person.  Not just throwing around fire but altering reality on a deeper level.  Human worship can elevate someone to Odin's status for example.  I'm saying that Harry may have that power within himself, not requiring worship, or outside help.  His internal will that is part his personality, and part Starborn power is within him, does not need outside sources of power like worship. .

[Kindler]

Yes but I'm thinking that Harry may become to a wizard what a wizard is to a person.  Not just throwing around fire but altering reality on a deeper level.  Human worship can elevate someone to Odin's status for example.  I'm saying that Harry may have that power within himself, not requiring worship, or outside help.  His internal will that is part his personality, and part Starborn power is within him, does not need outside sources of power like worship. .

Maybe starborns are mortals with potential to be elevated to a position like Odin's in the first place. Like, maybe Mab and Titania were starborn.

I do have a bit of a crack theory that William the Conqueror was a starborn, that Maeve's predecessor was killed during Hastings, and that that's why Titania and Mab haven't spoken since then. (Also that Stamford Bridge was where Odin lost to Mab for good, marking the end of the Age of Vikings and his stewardship of the Outer Gates.)

Funny enough, Hastings (and, you know, a huge part of the following several hundred years of history, more if you consider lineage a big deal, as it marked the end of Anglo-Saxon rule of the monarchy permanently) was kicked off in part because Halley's Comet came around, and a lot of people took it as a sign that the time to strike was nigh.

[Rasins]

Knowing that Jim doesn't want Harry to be a big fish in a big pond makes me think that even power over Outsiders will be limited.

[Froklsnt]

I think Snark Knight and jonas are right that we've got pretty compelling evidence for Harry having the power of naming. The eye flashes of Alfred and Erl as Harry named them, Mr. Sunshine's fear of being called Uri, etc. Naming in the bible was a power given to Adam over beasts in Genesis, it came directly from TWG. Maybe there's a connection there.

I also think Kindler might be on to something, noting Harry's similarity to Odin and other divine beings. Harry is the only mortal we have seen wielding raw will, as opposed to magic. Other than Harry, we've seen raw will from:

Ferrovax
Odin
Red King / LoON
Mother Winter
The Walkers

There might be one or two others (Mab maybe?) but it has been limited to nigh-immortals and Harry. Given that summoning Outsiders seems to be tied to mortals and their "free will," it seems to me that "power over Outsiders" could actually be "the ability of a mortal to directly apply their will," or "a mortal with enough will to effectively apply it directly." It is after beating Sharkface in a battle of wills that the Erlking says "Well done, Starborn!"  Naming seems to fit in with being a will-based power as well.

[groinkick]

Knowing that Jim doesn't want Harry to be a big fish in a big pond makes me think that even power over Outsiders will be limited.

Well I don't believe that's entirely accurate.  For the stories he want's Harry to be just powerful enough to survive, but has grown his power while simultaneously increasing the powers he is up against.  By series end, where Harry has developed his full potential is what I am talking about.  I'm not saying he will be on par with TWG, Uriel, or the Mothers.  I do think he may be up there on par with Odin, and maybe even Mab.  However that will ONLY be by the end, and not earlier.  That power might not be pure, raw magical power but a combination of things like his free will, allies, mantles, knowledge, magical ability, magical objects ect...  I do think he'll probably be the most powerful pure wizard by series end though.

[Rasins]

Oh, I understand, GK ... I'm just thinking about Jim's having said what he's said.  Small fish in a big pond.

[groinkick]

Oh, I understand, GK ... I'm just thinking about Jim's having said what he's said.  Small fish in a big pond.

Well I think he enjoys the underdog finding ways to win, and a gritty story where the protagonist takes a horrible beating before finally achieving victory.  That's difficult to do if he's like superman.  Also he likes to torture his reader.  I still think Harry will be a big bad mofo, but it won't be until around the end.  Might not be the biggest fish in the pond, but will still be a shark.

[Phariah]

I have been saying for awhile that the Starborn is more than just a counter to the Outsiders. I mean he is able to generate faith magic through his faith in magic as we have seen w/ his pentagram countering vamps. that could be an extension of his will as well. his use of multiple elemental magics. I mean is there an element he has not yet used? I think wood/ nature maybe. his use of multiple elements in succession is well beyond something a young wizard should be able to use. Lea, " anyone can play w/ an element. few can manipulate opposites w/ such ease." he is versed in mental magic combat as well as necromancy. he has used Hellfire and is currently using Soulfire. he learned how to be a ghost and utilize memories. I mean is there a power he has yet to learn how to use? Starborn, child of the stars, child of the universe. sorry but yeah he is very much an all around terror. is this natural ability as a gifted wizard or is it because he is Starborn.

think Capt Planet except as a wizard.

[Avernite]

I think Snark Knight and jonas are right that we've got pretty compelling evidence for Harry having the power of naming. The eye flashes of Alfred and Erl as Harry named them, Mr. Sunshine's fear of being called Uri, etc. Naming in the bible was a power given to Adam over beasts in Genesis, it came directly from TWG. Maybe there's a connection there.

I also think Kindler might be on to something, noting Harry's similarity to Odin and other divine beings. Harry is the only mortal we have seen wielding raw will, as opposed to magic. Other than Harry, we've seen raw will from:

Ferrovax
Odin
Red King / LoON
Mother Winter
The Walkers

There might be one or two others (Mab maybe?) but it has been limited to nigh-immortals and Harry. Given that summoning Outsiders seems to be tied to mortals and their "free will," it seems to me that "power over Outsiders" could actually be "the ability of a mortal to directly apply their will," or "a mortal with enough will to effectively apply it directly." It is after beating Sharkface in a battle of wills that the Erlking says "Well done, Starborn!"  Naming seems to fit in with being a will-based power as well.

Leah probably deployed Will, or her disguise at Chichen Itza would have been poor indeed.