Uriel's Second "Small Favor"

[Froklsnt]

Uriel explicitly says the other archangel, Lucifer, invested his strength "in this situation."

Letting Harry hold onto the Swords is not an investment of power, overt or otherwise.

It's exceedingly clear what two actions Uriel is referring to in that passage. Why are we muddying the waters here?

I posted this topic because there are four actions here, and Uriel's quote only covers three of them. The first two actions are unambiguous:

• Lucifer empowers the Greater Circle at Marcone's Safehouse ==> Uriel Gifts Harry Soulfire

The third action is also very clear, but the response isn't:

• Lucifer empowers the Greater Circle at Shedd Aquarium ==> Uriel does ??

The second circle cannot be pooled in with the first action/balancing action because the gift of soulfire happened before the second circle, and Heaven is a major rules-lawyer about responding to an action, not preempting it. The question at hand is how the scales were balanced for that second action by Lucifer

[jonas]

That's a fun idea, but I'm not sure the timing works. Harry comments that setting up the containment circle they used on Ivy was no simple thing. It took careful planning. For that to be the second favor, they would need to make that decision after they left the aquarium. Doesn't seem like enough time to set that up.

Saving Michael, like Snark Knight suggested, seems possible, but it doesn't really seem commensurate to me with the amount of power in the greater circle.

Depends upon the future actions of Michael to really measure that though.

[Rhetoric]

We have no reason to assume Uriel was behind both acts in response to the two circles, especially since we don't know what the second act even was.

[kazimmoinuddin]

I wonder if Uriel expected something like Bonnie to occur. It is believed that she not only has all her father knowledge, but a good portion of lashiel/lash knowledge. So a wizard capable of soul fire and a spirit of intellect that is sort of a nephlim filled with angelic lore would have epic concequences for the future.

[Brightbane]

Lucí gave the Denarians access to his power (they used it to super charge 2 pentagram). Uriel have Harry access to his own soul, which he can use whenever. Just like Lucifer doesn't get a new chance to exert his power every time Harry uses soul fire, Uriel doesn't get a reaction every time they use the pentagram. I feel like this is pretty straight forward

[deflated]

I posted this topic because there are four actions here, and Uriel's quote only covers three of them. The first two actions are unambiguous:

• Lucifer empowers the Greater Circle at Marcone's Safehouse ==> Uriel Gifts Harry Soulfire

The third action is also very clear, but the response isn't:

• Lucifer empowers the Greater Circle at Shedd Aquarium ==> Uriel does ??

The second circle cannot be pooled in with the first action/balancing action because the gift of soulfire happened before the second circle, and Heaven is a major rules-lawyer about responding to an action, not preempting it. The question at hand is how the scales were balanced for that second action by Lucifer

Why does the second Circle have to be considered separate from the first? Maybe Lucifer's action was to grant knowledge of how to form a Great Circle and access to the power to initiate them, which was balanced by Uriel granting the skill to use soulfire to Harry. Two acations balancing each other.

[Rhetoric]

Maybe Lucifer's action was to grant knowledge of how to form a Great Circle and access to the power to initiate them, which was balanced by Uriel granting the skill to use soulfire to Harry. Two acations balancing each other.

But I’ve been running some figures in my head, and when the Denarians pulled up those huge Signs, they had to have a lot of power to do it. A lot of power. More than I could ever have had, even with Lasciel. Archangel power.

Lucifer didn't teach the Denarians how to access power. Lucifer was the power the Denarians accessed.

Lucí gave the Denarians access to his power (they used it to super charge 2 pentagram). Uriel have Harry access to his own soul, which he can use whenever. Just like Lucifer doesn't get a new chance to exert his power every time Harry uses soul fire, Uriel doesn't get a reaction every time they use the pentagram. I feel like this is pretty straight forward

Frankly, the fact that there are multiple people here all with different understandings of the same events tells me that this is the complete opposite of straight forward...

Anyway, I find it highly unlikely that the Denarians can now call upon Lucifer's power whenever they please with no further heavenly interference. I think there is an important distinction between the Denarians using Lucifer's power twice, and Uriel allowing Dresden to use Soulfire, which is fueled by Dresden's own soul/power. Dresden doesn't need Uriel every time he accesses Soulfire.

[Mr. Death]

Frankly, the fact that there are multiple people here all with different understandings of the same events tells me that this is the complete opposite of straight forward...

Man, I don't know how long you've hung around here yet, but there are people who can read a direct, literal description of exactly what happens and who is doing what and still come up with "interpretations" of that event that have little or nothing to do with what's described on the page.

Mostly I blame it on us all going stir crazy waiting for Peace Talks.

[jonas]

Man, I don't know how long you've hung around here yet, but there are people who can read a direct, literal description of exactly what happens and who is doing what and still come up with "interpretations" of that event that have little or nothing to do with what's described on the page.

Mostly I blame it on us all going stir crazy waiting for Peace Talks.

As much as I'm pro theory, I'd have to agree with that in this case lol.

[Mira]

As much as I'm pro theory, I'd have to agree with that in this case lol.

It is all a matter of point of view isn't it?

[isoycrazy]

I think we are omitting one other possible action by Uriel to give aid to Harry for the twice hell-blessed power Luci gave to his minions.  As Kringle says, knowledge is a power like any other, and one of the most pure and dangerous forms of Power.   Uriel''s conversation with Harry, and the gifting of a book filled with wise morals and good philosophies, of good overcoming evil and the common man rising up to challenge the darkest of foes, could be the second favor. 

I don't see Uriel doing anything that cannot net him some gains in the future.  Harry was having a crisis of Faith and Uriel uses the marker Luci played to save a good man from forsaking his Faith.  Harry was at the point of saying F-U to the TWG when Uriel arrived in humble form to help guide him to a better understanding of the situation.  Wrath, I would say, is Harry's strongest vice.  To help a man stop from succumbing to it and have him lose Faith, seems like the best use of a marker.

[Froklsnt]

I can't really deny that I wouldn't be theorizing about Small Favor if we had something new to process

And in going back to the scene, it is true that Harry gets soulfire before the second greater circle goes up. However, Harry has been feeling the buildup of the energies being shaped for a fair bit of time before he creates the silver hand. It would be reasonable to assert that Lucifer had already taken his second action (specifically, sending his power to Earth) before Uriel did. If you buy into this interpretation of events, then this whole debate is moot. Also worth mentioning was that Harry was about to be casually killed by Thorned Namshiel when Uriel made his move. In addition to the long term gift of soulfire, Uriel also got the short-term reward of saving Dresden's life.

[Snark Knight]

Saving Michael, like Snark Knight suggested, seems possible, but it doesn't really seem commensurate to me with the amount of power in the greater circle.

I'm not sure granting Harry soulfire was equal to the great hellfire circles on a joules of energy basis either. I don't think it necessarily has to be - the balance seems to be just an action for an action. Uriel probably can't do something even bigger than the provocation he's countering (like, say, personally obliterate all the Fallen subordinate to Lucifer), but I see no reason he couldn't use his marker on a smaller action if he thinks a nudge in the right place will do more good than a shove in the wrong one.

[Mira]

I think we are omitting one other possible action by Uriel to give aid to Harry for the twice hell-blessed power Luci gave to his minions.  As Kringle says, knowledge is a power like any other, and one of the most pure and dangerous forms of Power.   Uriel''s conversation with Harry, and the gifting of a book filled with wise morals and good philosophies, of good overcoming evil and the common man rising up to challenge the darkest of foes, could be the second favor. 

I don't see Uriel doing anything that cannot net him some gains in the future.  Harry was having a crisis of Faith and Uriel uses the marker Luci played to save a good man from forsaking his Faith.  Harry was at the point of saying F-U to the TWG when Uriel arrived in humble form to help guide him to a better understanding of the situation.  Wrath, I would say, is Harry's strongest vice.  To help a man stop from succumbing to it and have him lose Faith, seems like the best use of a marker.

Well, think about it, would Harry have been successful with Alfred if he hadn't added a couple of drops of soul fire to his blood when he did the first summoning?  I'd say that is a gain for the future..

[kazimmoinuddin]

It seems to me that pieces of a permanent solution is coming together. A wizard that is a know enemy of the fallen has soul fire, soulfire can really mess with denarians. That wizard has a scion child that potentially has access to the angelic of one of the fallen. So magics and spells that can affect the coin collection, as well as their names, sigils and history would be availabl.