Does Molly still have her soul?

[Arjan]

I don't think she ever Chose fae. There was a WOJ that she was just mistaken at the end of SK in thinking she had a choice left at all - the clock was already ticking for her.

You do not always have a choice in everything even if you have free will, some things are just forced upon you.

[groinkick]

That is historical.

No, that's conjecture.  Not knowing about a thing does not remove the thing's existence.  Stating the White God was not important in the past is conjecture.  Uriel stated that he was fighting wars before Earth even existed.  So TWG, and his Angels were around in the past, and that's in book information.

There is also Hades comment that souls used to go to him and not to other places

In book cannon states that the Angels job is to ensure Choice...  If mortals chose to believe in a place like the Underworld, and Hades, it makes sense that he would get souls.  People made their choice to believe in it.

[DonBugen]

Jonas, I’d be very interested to hear your WOJ on mortals losing their souls due to hideous acts yet continuing to live without souls.  In fact, I’d actually like to challenge you on that, because it’s book-canon that all mortals have them, and anything that appears mortal but doesn’t trigger the soul gaze must be inhuman.
 

"Why should I?" I snarled, and for once I didn't avert my eyes. I stared into her gleaming amber eyes and braced myself for the impact of looking into her soul, and for her to peer into mine.

Instead, nothing happened.

That, in itself, was enough to make my jaw drop incredulously. I continued the stare, and she didn't blink, didn't turn away - and didn't fall into soulgaze with me. I shuddered in reaction. What was going on? Why didn't the 'gaze begin? There were only two kinds of people whose eyes I could meet for more than a second or two: the people who had already met my eyes in a soulgaze were one kind; inhuman beings from the Nevernever were the other.

I had never looked upon Tera West's soul before. I remembered a soulgaze, every time it happened. The experience wasn't the sort of thing you could forget. That only left one conclusion.

Whoever she was - whatever she was, Tera West wasn't human.

I mean, it’s always possible that Harry’s wrong.  But I'm certain that either Justin or Ebenezer would have taught him the information he's stating about soul gazes, and I can't think of a good reason why either would be mistaken or intentionally misleading him.  Furthermore, nothing in the Dresden Files ever seems to support that horrible people who have caused pain, death, and suffering on an exponential scale lose their souls.  Laura Raith and John Marcone, for example, but have souls.  Hell, even Rasmussen has a soul, and at that point he was slaughtering people as Ursiel for generations.

By the way, Corpsetaker’s an interesting case.  It (and I’m referring to the Corpsetaker as It because she/he has identified as both, and has no fixed sex) doesn’t trigger a soulgaze when Harry stares at it in Ghost Story – possibly due to Harry being an emaciated soul and the Corpsetaker also being in spirit form – but then when it possesses Butters, it does soul gaze Molly.

I see two different possibilities.  The first, and probably less likely, is that the Corpsetaker was a true ghost in Ghost Story – just an impression of the original person, but not them at all – and that it somehow created a soul by eating the spooks.  The second, and more likely, is that its ability to swap its soul back and forth between person and person allowed it to ‘jump ship’ when Harry killed Luccio’s body, so Corpsetaker has been running around as a naked soul since Dead Beat.  In this case, Dresden didn't trigger a soul gaze because he didn't have enough of a soul to do so, not the other way around.

But yeah, Corpsetaker soul gazes Molly.  There’s no question about it.  Corpsetaker has a soul, too.

[groinkick]

Jim didn't say people lose their souls from doing bad things.  He said that you lose parts of it, over time from doing bad things or words to that effect.  The question is how much do you lose per act, and how much do you regenerate which it does do.  If someone loses their entire soul, they would probably die just as Harry would if he used too much soulfire, according to Bob.

The way Jim described it, as I remember is that even Mab may still have some left.  Mortals lose parts of their souls from doing bad things but mortals lives end probably before their entire soul is consumed.  The difference between a mortal, and someone like Mab is that Mab lives much much longer giving her more and more time to lose bits, and pieces. 

[DonBugen]

All that other stuff aside, even taking the Christian point of view into account—how will Michael, whose whole life is built around Catholicism, react if he finds out about the soul thing? From his perspective, assuming the above suppositions are true, his firstborn will never, no matter what, be able to join him in Paradise.

I'll be over here trying to get the image of a weeping Michael out of my head now.

I know, right?  And more than that, I wonder how Molly is really doing.  I doubt that if she was horribly regretting it she'd be able to flat-out say anything.  You notice in Skin Game that she never actually goes out and says that she likes being the Winter Lady, or that she's OK with it.  She doesn't say anything flat out.

I mean, I know that Harry mentioned at one point that Molly had a healthy dose of skepticism on organized religion, but there's a big difference between liking organized religion and believing in God.  She literally lives in a world where she not only knows that the faith her parents taught her is real, she has constant proof of it.  I mean, an archangel just hung out with them for the weekend and made blueberry pancakes.

If she did lose her soul, imagine KNOWING that the rest of your family, everyone you know, would live on for eternity in paradise...  and that you would live for a very, very long time, but when you died, that would be it.  You would just be done, and cease to be.

[Arjan]

I know, right?  And more than that, I wonder how Molly is really doing.  I doubt that if she was horribly regretting it she'd be able to flat-out say anything. 

Lilly could so Molly can do so as well.

You notice in Skin Game that she never actually goes out and says that she likes being the Winter Lady, or that she's OK with it.  She doesn't say anything flat out.

We have her inner monologue in Cold Case.

I mean, I know that Harry mentioned at one point that Molly had a healthy dose of skepticism on organized religion, but there's a big difference between liking organized religion and believing in God.  She literally lives in a world where she not only knows that the faith her parents taught her is real, she has constant proof of it.  I mean, an archangel just hung out with them for the weekend and made blueberry pancakes.

Sanya is wielding that sword and he is still sceptical about some things.

If she did lose her soul, imagine KNOWING that the rest of your family, everyone you know, would live on for eternity in paradise... 

Actually what is next is not that certain. We have the stories of course but everyone we think has some knowledge about it refuses to tell anything.

and that you would live for a very, very long time, but when you died, that would be it.  You would just be done, and cease to be.

Knowing you had done something that really mattered, defending reality itself. At the moment you try to save your soul at the cost of everything and everyone you are not really saving it. Molly has a purpose now and that purpose is important.

Molly also has a very strong sense of duty.

[Kindler]

Lilly could so Molly can do so as well. We have her inner monologue in Cold Case. Sanya is wielding that sword and he is still sceptical about some things. Actually what is next is not that certain. We have the stories of course but everyone we think has some knowledge about it refuses to tell anything. Knowing you had done something that really mattered, defending reality itself. At the moment you try to save your soul at the cost of everything and everyone you are not really saving it. Molly has a purpose now and that purpose is important.

Molly also has a very strong sense of duty.

I haven't read Cold Case yet, or any of the others that will be in Brief Cases, mostly because I refuse to buy a short story compendium (I don't particularly like short stories as a format; writing them was always a chore for me, so I stuck with novels with backstory notes; reading them tends to feel rushed to me) for one entry. I don't know what her inner monologue is like, but I'm excited to find out.

I'd argue that doing something worthwhile and having a purpose is great, but that doesn't mean you're happy about the price. No matter what, Molly is paying a price, and will continue to pay it, for a very, very long time (barring, you know, destruction of reality). It's made worse since this wasn't something Molly went into willingly, with any real grasp of the consequences. The Winter Lady's Mantle was shoved down her throat.

Being willing to pay a cost to make the best of a bad situation is different from being happy about it. She may not care about it in a hundred years when the Mantle asserts itself and pieces of Molly's personality get chipped away, but I'd be willing to bet she cares now.

I'd say that things may be turning out for the best with Molly as the Winter Lady, but that doesn't preclude it from being tragic.

[peregrine]

Lilly could so Molly can do so as well.

Lilly was Summer, not Winter.  I can see Winter being very much of the "don't admit weakness" while Summer is much more into sharing.

[Rasins]

This question is of particular interest to me, so I'd asked Jim about and was GREATLY unsatisfied by his answer.

I think what is meant is that someone does not give up that energy (if you will) that is your soul.  What happens is it is your's when you are able to continue to make choices for the good.

Meaning if you lose your soul, what you've done is made so many decisions to be bad/evil/dark that it's almost impossible for you to make any decisions that are not bad/evil/dark.  That you have basically given up your free will to the Darkness.  The more you seek power, for whatever reason, the more likely you are darken your soul.  The whole Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Mab may still have a spark of a soul, because she still believes she's doing what is good, even if the means are at times bad.  She is totally Fae though, no matter what. 

Molly still has most of her soul because she hasn't made those decisions that have "darkened" her soul to the point where she sees no choice but the dark choices..

I think Harry's assertion in the beginning of the series that the Fae have no souls is either wrong, or that their souls have changes so much, have lost so much of the ability to exercise Free will, that they are no longer recognizable by another (mortal's) soul.

I believe that if someone else tried to soul gaze Molly now, it would work.  That her soul has not been so twisted and darkened yet to be un-touchable by another soul.

As to Lily ... Jim said that she had made her choice through her actions.  She was just in denial about it.  No clue about her soul thought.

As to Bob's having said that Lily was basically just Aurora after 10 years, I think he's making an assumption.  Remember he didn't see Lily (or Aurora that we know of) either before she was Queen, nor when he'd made the 10-year comment.

[Snark Knight]

Jonas, I’d be very interested to hear your WOJ on mortals losing their souls due to hideous acts yet continuing to live without souls.  In fact, I’d actually like to challenge you on that, because it’s book-canon that all mortals have them, and anything that appears mortal but doesn’t trigger the soul gaze must be inhuman.

I recall the one he's referring to (something about "just look at the average newscast"), but I see your point that it seems incompatible with what we know of soulgazes. Nicodemus is pretty much the paragon of human evil, and Harry is pretty sure a look in his eyes would be the next best thing to madness-inducing, rather than just nothing at all.

[jonas]

I recall the one he's referring to (something about "just look at the average newscast"), but I see your point that it seems incompatible with what we know of soulgazes. Nicodemus is pretty much the paragon of human evil, and Harry is pretty sure a look in his eyes would be the next best thing to madness-inducing, rather than just nothing at all.

Yea if I could find it, didn't even see this until you quoted it btw. I Looked but because of the broad variety of questions and topics that it could be thrown into I might have just plain missed it in the reference collection itself. Reply to Free will? Dark Magic? Fae? Another similarly worded question? Perhaps it's not even in there directly, but I'm positive I actually read this and not listened to it.

[jonas]

A view of the dresden files in book christians.It is also about what happens with it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if in the dresden files hindus get reincarnated and christians not. The books are pretty vague about what next is, it is entirely possible.

Besides knowing about the soul and an afterlife is not the same as valueing it. Maybe you want to escape the cycle. Maybe you want to stay behind as a shade to help your descendants. Maybe you want to find a purpose like Mab did.The white god is a title you use if you are not a follower. The white god was not that important in the past and he might not be that important in the future. Things change.

She knows Hades as well, a lot of souls went to the him in stead of the Christian afterlife. She probably expected to go somewhere else.

It is not just about what is but also about how you look at it. Why would she want to be a shade attending some god that is not hers? She has a purpose, she has fullfillment. Eternity is overrated.

Ask Gard, she will tell something similar.

I think Michael will be concerned but strangely enough I think Uriel is not, I do not see any evidence for it in the books.

The same story [Backup] seemed to imply that entities could gain or lose power retroactively, in a wibbley-wobbly timey-wimey sort of way. For example, The Almighty is the Creator of the Universe, but He hasn't always been the Creator of the Universe[4] . Is there anything to this assumption, and if so, might we see it explored in greater detail later?
Jim: 7) You're assigning limits where there aren't any. In the Dresden Files universe, what changes really isn't the actual beings. It's our understanding of who and what they are

[toodeep]

Great thread.  Raises a lot of the important questions.  I'll try to put some of my thoughts in order:

1.  Molly had a choice about becoming the winter lady.  When the power came to her she could have chosen to resist and been killed.  Choice in a "convert or die" situation is still a choice.

2.  To my mind, the mantle suppresses access to the soul.  If one has a strong enough soul, and the strength to exercise it by actively using their free will, than the soul may survive and be useable, but if not it just slowly gets ground down until it is effectively not there.  This explains why you can't soulgaze a fey (because the soul is suppressed) but I think that Mab actively exercised free will in not immediately just killing Maeve, which would have been the most winter-ish action that her Mantle should have pushed her toward.

3.  The soul of a mortal is never "destroyed" especially not by making dark choices.  After all, those dark choices are still choices, and an exercise of free will.

So in my thoughts, her soul is still present, somewhere, but it is a much bigger struggle to exercise it than it used to be.  She can still be saved if the Mantle is removed.

My big question about the soul is the one that has been discussed before about ghosts.  Harry and the Corpsetaker may have been running around in the souls, but the old british soldier should not have been, his ghost was supposed to be just a ghost, and yet at the end of the book we see him getting a job offer from an angel.  How can a ghost work for an angel in a job peopled by souls?  Shouldn't his soul already be wherever it was judged to be?  Are all ghosts souls?  Then how was there a live Harry and a ghost Harry simultaneously?  It gets very murky very quick.

[Arjan]

I do it think that Stuart was a soul as well even if he did not know it himself. He was just stronger than the rest and Uriels interest points in that direction.

Clearly you can choos to stay behind if your spirit is strong enough Uriel and Harry even discussed that possibility at the end of ghost story but Uriel said Harry's spiritual essence had become too weak. It is what necromancers can do if they want to return but also if you strongly feel something needs to be done. Maybe it is how ancestor worship originated.

[jonas]

I do it think that Stuart was a soul as well even if he did not know it himself. He was just stronger than the rest and Uriels interest points in that direction.

He's a Roman ancestor spirit,(well, he's the same thing anyway) it's why he kept his self all those years, he had a purpose in protecting his lineage. He talks about in GS how all ghosts start to loose themselves eventually. I can't recall directly but something about that caught me up one day about why he never did, classically, ancestor spirits don't drift apart into shades or... whatever they called them.