Author Topic: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.  (Read 14374 times)

Offline Shift8

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Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« on: September 21, 2017, 11:44:08 PM »
Probably like many on this board, I read/watch alot of fantasy outside of the Dresden files. Among alot of this Fantasy are alot of different kinds of Vampires.

For a long time I never game much thought to the ramifications of the natures of various types of vampires that are in different kinds of fantasy. I could readily accept the context of any type of story. Here are a few examples of the various kinds of Vampires that most typically exist in stories.

Humans with extreme desire and need to feed, but can choose otherwise: Thomas is an example of this. He is possessed or set upon by a need to feed for survival, but he can technically avoid doing so either by coming up with alternate means to feed or by simply choosing to die rather than murder someone.

Beast type vampire: Essentially a supernatural animal that feeds specifically on humans. A undesirable creature to be sure, but no more evil than a rabid dog.

Moral Monster type. Human level intellect, self-aware. But despite being self-aware is only capable of Evil: Red and certainly Black vampires are this third type. Alot of Winter Fae probably fall into this category despite not being vampires. Perhaps some summer Fae as well. Lord of the Ring style Orcs are certainly this. These creatures are essentially all "evil people." But critical to their nature, they are not redeemable. Nor are their any in their ranks that would be considered good. Essentially, kill on sight. They do not warrant any of the normal moral considerations of free will creatures. The world is better off without them.


The thing I cant work out is exactly how the last type would or could exist.  Each one of the last type combined both the intellect and moral knowledge of the first, but the complete lack regard for other sentient creatures as the beast type. They are not just really smart beast types. They are evil incarnate. Personal Evil. They aren't wolves. Other characters in a given series dont just view them as forces of nature, but in the same manner you would view a serial killer. Hate. Moral Hate. Not hate like you hate a wolf or a hurricane, but hate like you might hate Adolf Hitler or Himmler.  The question is, how should these creatures be viewed? Negatively certainly. But are they moral evil or are they just extremely smart and undesirable in the context of their behavior? Essentially, they have free will as it pertains to "being bad."

What I cant figure out is if the last type is even logically possible.


Offline jonas

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2017, 12:07:06 AM »
Cause they are the equivalent of a fallen human soul. they are an inversion of what they were before, they exist on the same negative energy that being not provides necromancy. In all the courts the inner demon seeks to manifest here in this world, with the blacks it's paring off all the extraneous details and switching them directly.
Take a direct look at a fallen angel vs a regular one, that's the same extreme wanna look at the logic of, same answer for damn near the same reason.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 12:09:42 AM by jonas »
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 12:37:38 AM »
I'm not at all sure the Black Court do have a choice.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 01:48:52 AM »
I'm not at all sure the Black Court do have a choice.

Don't know 100% but I thought Jim said something like this.  There is something that sets them apart from the other courts.  Like they are more far gone or something.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline jonas

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 08:14:03 AM »
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Are all red courts and black court vampires evil?
This is a pretty huge question and depends a lot on how you view the world.
Red Court vampires, by definition, to become a vampire, have to murder someone else to become what they are. They have to end another person's life to satisfy a desire that does not /need/ to be satisfied in order for them to continue living. Every single one of them makes a choice to sate that desire rather than allow another human being to live--the Fellowship of St. Giles proves that.
(Of course, there are shades of grey involved--a half-vampire who was kept starving and without water in a basement for three days before they were thrown a mortal has a much more difficult time making a clear-headed choice than a half-vampire who was restrained yet cared for by a group of religiously fanatic monks at a Fellowship stronghold, but there's still a choice being made.)
That could, by some people, be considered a working definition of evil. Sometimes unfortunate, sometimes understandable as to how someone could make that choice, but evil nonetheless.
Black Court Vamps are a different story. They're actually tainted by something hideous and unworldly. They are driven to kill to survive. They don't really have a lot of choice about it. They enjoy being what they are, and doing what they do. They can be sad that they don't have someone who loves them, or upset that the world has passed them by and has changed on them, but at the end of the day, they're basically black-hearts who occasionally pull out a few of the tattered remains of their humanity, fail to fit back into them like they used to, and get maudlin about their glory days when they could watch the sun rise.
Even the new found lack of choice reminds me of a fallen. Just one big switch that can't be unflipped.
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Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2017, 12:13:22 AM »
There are likely many creatures that feed on humans, so why are the vampire courts so distinctive and prevalent. The seven courts each have a seat at the accords, that has to be unique. The only other such examples are the faerie holding places on the accords. I always wondered since the vampire courts called each other cousin, could they have kind of common origin or source? My money is on the result of magical rituals or outsider influence, possibly even both.
k moinuddin

Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2017, 12:29:47 AM »
To get a clearer answer we need to see all the vampire courts to be able to make a clear argument concerning their true nature.
k moinuddin

Offline jonas

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2017, 12:59:24 AM »
To get a clearer answer we need to see all the vampire courts to be able to make a clear argument concerning their true nature.
Possibly, but allow me to make a few thematic Wags, utilizing a bit of what I know from Woj's.
The jade court are probably the closest to neutrally divine 'ancestor spirits' the valley they live in they inhabit because of the ghost thing, or possibly closer to the Naagloshi's domain. So they likely feed directly on the ancestor worship and act benevolently in return, Making them rent payers like Kringle perhaps?
He mentioned one with reverse legs that can jump, I can't recall if that's the African mythos or not, but that would be another one.
Being that there are 7 courts specifically but he did not flesh out the details of every court at the inception of the idea, I think it's a safe bet he based them loosely upon the 7 deadly sins(Which if you know/understand my theory on TWC making Sin a balanced force were it was previously unbalance, those seven forces birthing something into this world to different degree's seems likely enough when that was the path the Accuser took)
I can't remember offhand which court I'd labeled for which, Iirc I DO have that written down somewhere still if I can't suss it out again. Something like Jade=Pride Whites=Lust, which is highlighted when Harry goes to club Zero Reds=gluttony(the bellies lol) Blacks=Envy or Greed, for life(an undead sorcerous wants to eat a bunch of living magic via Hallow...) ect.
If we look to the Reds as an example various, starborn/generational period godlings went through a 'fall' from outside forces being born through them (just like warlocks now...) to various degree's.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 01:02:28 AM by jonas »
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2017, 02:11:53 AM »
re: Jonas

I believe it's reds who have the backwards knees. At one point in a fight Harry bashes something in the knee and comments that it wouldn't have worked on a Rampire because their actual knees are backwards (though I'm not sure how the actual mechanics of passing for human work ... possibly they can flex either way?), and it would have just pissed off a Blampire.

As for the vampire courts corresponding to the seven deadly sins, I'm not sure I buy that one. Whampire = lust only works for the Raiths. Though two of the White Court noble houses do seem to feed on two of the three cardinal virtues. The Raiths feed on lust and are harmed by love (Amoracchius?) and the Skavis feed on despair (presumably weak against hope, embodied by Esperacchius). I wonder if a case might also be made that faith is the opposite of fear, thereby putting Malvora in opposition to faith / Fidelacchius?

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2017, 02:24:50 AM »
Jonas – excellent WOJ grab; you saved me the trouble.

Shift8 – I like your hierarchy of morality between supernatural races.  I often use Demosthenes’ Hierarchy of Foreignness when considering other species, but Utlänning, Främling, Raman, Varelse, and Djur doesn’t exactly fit 1:1 in the Dresdenverse, in which creatures can be sentient and sapient, but also lack the freedom of choice.  Besides, Card’s entire theory was that if you think that the alien just wants to eat your face, maybe you’re just not communicating well enough and haven't tried hard enough for peace.  In The Dresden Files, sometimes the monster just wants to eat your face.

I’d agree with Jonas’ WOJ posting – it seems pretty clear that the Black Court doesn’t have free choice anymore; at least, not enough in order to choose not to live the lifestyle that they do.  The Reds, I feel, are debatable.  Susan certainly chose to still sacrifice her life after taking the life of another.  It’s arguable that she was in the process of changing while the decision was made, but I would disagree with this.  The fact that she worked as the catalyst for the bloodline curse and offered no resistance to Dresden seems like sufficient proof that she was Red Court and still had the ability to make a free choice.  Furthermore, I think also that Ortega’s somewhat reasonable negotiation with Dresden before the duel and Bianca’s protective attitude towards her girls as demonstrated in Storm Front also act as evidence that the Reds had the capacity to try to be something else…  They certainly seem to have more humanity than the Black Court, in any case.

When it boils down to “evilness”, your definition really depends on how you define “evil”.  Is evil a matter of perspective, or is there an actual measure?  After all, what might be “evil” for some could be just survival for others.  A White Court vampire who doesn’t kill anyone, but steals about a year of life from everyone they encounter in order to survive and mentally influences other people into betraying their spouse, breaking apart families, might be considered a great evil…  or just a lost person, like Thomas in Dead Beat, who’s just trying to figure out how to survive.  There’s a WOJ somewhere (which I also don’t have access to) in which Jim states that in the Dresden Files, the good guys are the ones who are trying to give people choice and preserve that choice, and the evil ones are those attempting to take it away.

Shift8, your question was to whether the "moral monster" really existed.  In the Dresdenverse, I think that it all really boils down to whether the individual has choice or not.  If the individual does not have choice, then the next question would be:  does this creature serve some sort of function?

If the creature has free choice, then it could not fall into the "moral monster" category; it has the capacity to choose good.  It might be a really, really hard choice, but they can.  A warlock, especially one who hasn't lost their sanity yet, is an example of this.  The Council hunts them down and kills them because of the great evil they could do, but they are not inherently evil and irredeemable. 

If the creature does not have free choice, then it must still be considered whether or not it serves a function.  Consider this:  right now, in our world, scientists are debating whether it is a good or bad idea to wipe the mosquito population off of the world - in essence, to make mosquitoes extinct.  They are, in a sense, Djur - a monster which cannot be reasoned with, cannot change, and will continue to prey on mankind.  However, they very well may have a role in our ecosystem which is critical, and their sudden absence could drastically throw off or destroy other species - be it from lack of a once-abundant food supply, or from a sudden lost pollinator (and yes, there are insect pollinators other than honeybees) or from even something so wild as a hidden symbiote that we might not even be aware of; a beneficial parasite that is passed.  For us to assume that wiping out the mosquito population simply because from our perspective it is nothing but trouble is arrogance, as we don't know all that it does.

Mab and the Winter Court are a perfect example of this.  Prior to Cold Days, I would have agreed with your statement - the Winter Fae are nothing but bloodthirsty monsters, incapable of free will, harmful to humanity; kill and exterminate on sight.  However, we've since learned that they play an EXTREMELY vital role in the defense of reality; they're tough and monstrous because their job requires it.  I would find it extremely hard to believe that the Winter Fae is the only baddie type that Jim Butcher ever created that has more than one side to it and isn't a whole-black hat.  In fact, I would put money on the assumption that no enemy in the Dresden Files could be ultimately viewed as fully evil, once all is actually known about them.  Therefore, I also don't believe that you could just say flatly, "Kill on sight" to any creature scott-free.

EDIT: Snark Knight's post just reminded me that there are creatures in the Dresden Files that likely don't serve some sort of purpose and are actively being exterminated - hence the Oblivion War and Ivy's true purpose.  I've added one last category.

Therefore, I would suggest an alternate hierarchy, instead of "Human with desire to feed," "Beast vampire," and "Moral Monster."  It would go:

Mortal  (Free will, no influences)
Supernatural Entity (Free will, some influences)
Benign Immortal (No free will, not immediately dangerous to mortals)
Dangerous Immortal (No free will, dangerous if encountered)
Hostile Monster (No free will, actively trying to kill, destroy, and enthrall)
Abomination (Creature actively threatening reality as we know it)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 02:58:50 AM by DonBugen »

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2017, 02:38:18 AM »
I would find it extremely hard to believe that the Winter Fae is the only baddie type that Jim Butcher ever created that has more than one side to it and isn't a whole-black hat.  In fact, I would put money on the assumption that no enemy in the Dresden Files could be ultimately viewed as fully evil, once all is actually known about them.

I can't see the Black Court having a hidden importance like the Unseelie do. Reason being, reality apparently got along fine without them until Dracula botched his ascension ritual and turned himself into a monster to found that Court, presumably ca 1400's when the historical Vlad Tepes was around.

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2017, 03:04:00 AM »
That is a fair point, but I don't think that you could for-sure stand on that as a defense.  True, the world managed without them for how long, and they're vastly reduced in number since.  But we know so very little about them that it's hard to state that their complete extermination wouldn't somehow cause negative repercussions somewhere else.

I mean, hell, I'm hesitant to even label the creatures in Demonreach as "needing complete oblivion".  For all we know, the prison there also functions as a battery to something even far greater that's doing something important. 

However, your post reminded me that there is a class of being that is an active threat to reality as we know it and the Oblivion War is essentially trying to exterminate.  I've added one more class to my proposed hierarchy.

Offline forumghost

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2017, 12:30:48 PM »
Whampire = lust only works for the Raiths. Though two of the White Court noble houses do seem to feed on two of the three cardinal virtues. The Raiths feed on lust and are harmed by love (Amoracchius?) and the Skavis feed on despair (presumably weak against hope, embodied by Esperacchius). I wonder if a case might also be made that faith is the opposite of fear, thereby putting Malvora in opposition to faith / Fidelacchius?

IIRC Jim has said it's:

Raith's= Feed on Lust, vulnerable to Love
Scav= Feed on Dispair, vulnerable to Hope
Mal= Feed on Fear, vulnerable to Courage

I more interested to know what the hypothetical 'sparkly' Wamp that feeds on the warm fuzzy feeling of hugging a puppy would be vulnerable to myself...

Offline jonas

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2017, 02:51:38 PM »
re: Jonas

I believe it's reds who have the backwards knees. At one point in a fight Harry bashes something in the knee and comments that it wouldn't have worked on a Rampire because their actual knees are backwards (though I'm not sure how the actual mechanics of passing for human work ... possibly they can flex either way?), and it would have just pissed off a Blampire.

As for the vampire courts corresponding to the seven deadly sins, I'm not sure I buy that one. Whampire = lust only works for the Raiths. Though two of the White Court noble houses do seem to feed on two of the three cardinal virtues. The Raiths feed on lust and are harmed by love (Amoracchius?) and the Skavis feed on despair (presumably weak against hope, embodied by Esperacchius). I wonder if a case might also be made that faith is the opposite of fear, thereby putting Malvora in opposition to faith / Fidelacchius?
Your only looking at the simple translation of lust, for charnel desire. If we look at it through how you brought up,(because yes the three also do match up thematically) then take say, Marcone. Marcones crime is lust his foible is love,he might limit it to innocent children but that it the prime opposing factor. But he doesn't lust for sex, iirc he can even Resist Laura a bit like Harry. He lusts for Power, with a capital P. He wants the power, the choices it brings.
Going back to Club zero though, Lust is seen in parallel to say, famine. It's the inability to slake a desire. As all three houses have birthed a literal unslakable desire within, they're Lust. They not only Lust, but Lust after something only attainable from another and at their expense, toeing the proverbial free will line just enough under the new rules. quote that scene if I can soon.
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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Vampires and Evil, a philosophical rabbit hole.
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2017, 06:28:15 PM »
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then take say, Marcone. Marcones crime is lust his foible is love,he might limit it to innocent children but that it the prime opposing factor. But he doesn't lust for sex, iirc he can even Resist Laura a bit like Harry. He lusts for Power, with a capital P. He wants the power, the choices it brings.
That is a way, way loose translation of lust, and I don't think it applies in this situation.  By boiling it down to "a desire that cannot be filled" then essentially everyone in The Dresden Files is a creature of lust.  This is the human condition.  Otherwise then, Molly lusts for freedom and independence, Butters lusts for respect in his job, Karrin lusts to play the hero and help people, Harry lusts for quiet alone time on his couch with a good paperback.  Sure, Marcone wants power and influence, and gets them.  Doesn't make him a creature of lust.  And it doesn't make the White Court's acts of emotional draining more "lusty" than, say, the Red court, whose feeding practices were VERY sexualized. 

Besides, the foil of Marcone is certainly not love.  As far as we can see, love has nothing to do with the reason why he protects children.  The evidence portrayed in Death Masks and Small Favor lean more in favor of immense guilt and shame, rather than any sort of feeling of love on his behalf.  I doubt he even knew Helen's child before he put her in a coma.

I think that you're loosening the translation in order to fit your theory, and in doing so you're losing the significance of the sin of lust.  After all, defining it as a desire that cannot be quenched is pretty much identical to gluttony, which would also be pretty identical to greed.  Besides, if we're matching up sins to courts, it seems like Wrath would fit the black court better in any case.

I think that your attempt to define the vampire courts as being similar to the seven deadly sins is far too Catholic to really fit the pan-theological world of the Dresden Files.  Jim's stated that we see a lot of Christianity simply because TDF takes place in the USA and Europe mostly, where Christianity has its greatest foothold, but that the same powers would be very different in other regions.  Trying to make the Jade Court, for example, fit into the Seven Deadly Sins would mean taking a group which resides in China and doesn't leave the Yangtze River Valley area, and subjecting them to a paradigm that at most has a small number of persecuted followers in their area.  Beings in the Dresden Files look very different from different perspectives.