Author Topic: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?  (Read 23201 times)

Offline DonBugen

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Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« on: September 15, 2017, 06:37:31 PM »
So, what I have is not a weird, wild conspiracy theory at all.  Rather, it’s just a bunch of suspicions and unanswered questions.  I’m throwing this out to you all to ponder.  With all of this information, I suspect that Harry was being prepared, though not yet specifically trained in necromancy.

Jim Butcher has stated several times that there’s a specific literary tool that is used to spoonfeed information to the reader, called the “joy of idiocy.”  Basically, what this means is that if something complex is happening in the book, there must be an idiot around to ask questions so that the reader can get all of his questions answered.  In the first several books, Murphy plays the idiot to Harry for common supernatural questions, and Harry plays the idiot to Bob about more complex questions.  And it’s pretty clear in the beginning that Harry doesn’t know much about the supernatural world around him.  Bob instructs Harry on the different types of werewolves, on the fact that there are multiple faerie queens (because remember, Dresden threatens Toot in Storm Front with the faerie queen, singular), on just about every potion, the Fallen, the differences between vampires…  pretty much everything complex that comes up.

This changes with Dead Beat.  In Dead Beat, Harry questions Bob about Kemmler.  However, Butters questions Harry a lot about necromancy – and Harry has answers.  Without hesitation, Harry is able to tell Butters about necromancers, zombies, drummers, the effect of stopping said drummer versus the effect of cutting the zombie off from the energy, why human spirits are only used in necromancy, the two variables (impression and age) which make a zombie or spirit strong, and much, much more.

In fact, Harry goes far more in-depth with Butters in Dead Beat about the mechanics of necromancy than he goes with Murphy about thaumaturgy in Storm Front.

How does he know all this?  All right, so it’s very possible that there might have been a necromancer as a villain-of-the-week between two of the earlier books.  That’s always possible… except that Dresden never really mentions it.  It would be the perfect time to mention an earlier baddie, and Jim had already made a point in several prior books to outright state that Harry does plenty of other stuff that we don’t see in the books.

So, that’s piece of evidence number one.  Piece of evidence number two is that Evil Bob recognizes the “true power” within Harry.  When Evil Bob (the separate entity, not the “original” Bob) speaks to Dresden in Ghost Story, he states that Dresden’s death would be the loss of potential, that Kemmler would be interested in Harry, and that Harry is perfectly suited to be a far better apprentice than Corpsetaker.  Grevaine, as well, sees the ability within Harry and offers him a partnership deal in Dead Beat.  Furthermore, Dead Beat mentions several times about Harry’s ‘taint;’ Grevaine ‘smells’ the True Magic on Harry, which is presumed to be Evil Bob’s attack.  However, Harry has always been somewhat tainted by black magic.  It’s implied that this is from Harry’s killing of Justin in a duel to the death, but it’s very possible that if Dresden was being taught by a necromancer, and learning the basics of necromancy, that some of this taint might come from dabbling in the basics of the art.

Remember, also – when Butters asks Harry if Grevaine is a wizard like Harry, his response is to snarl back, “He’s not like me.”  True, this could just point to Harry’s overall struggle to be a good person and doing the right thing.  But it could also be that he recognizes on a deeper level that he very much could have turned into a creature like Grevaine had his path been slightly different.

The third piece of evidence…  is that Harry is really, really good at necromancy.

I mean, it’s sort of universally acknowledged that the resurrection of Sue is pretty much a monumental masterpiece.  Dresden explains this by stating that he’s read Kemmler’s book.  However, I doubt that the book itself would have spent any time going over the basics of necromancy, something that the followers of Kemmler had devoted their life to studying.  Furthermore, while Lasciel could have taught Harry the forms of basic resurrection, what Harry does with Sue is neither a resurrection of a ghost or a resurrection of a zombie – he calls forth flesh made from ectoplasm to serve as living flesh.  Furthermore, even if Lasciel taught him everything here, it would mean that Harry pulled off, with no issue or error at all, an incredibly huge, difficult piece of magic in an art he had never before used, did not feel comfortable with, and until then had treated as evil, on his first try.  This goes from improbable to almost completely unbelievable.

Harry uses the excuse of Halloween as the reason for why he’s able to do said magic, and perhaps there’s some truth to this.  But Molly’s training shows us just how difficult it is to pick up a new discipline, especially one that you’re not familiar with.  In Skin Game, Harry is fairly confident that it would take Hannah some time to learn to open a Way back to Chicago.  With this in mind, combined with the knowledge that Harry has a very solid understanding of the mechanics behind zombies, spirits, and necromancy, plus the fact that two separate practitioners of necromancy clearly see the potential and ability within him, makes me think that it's extremely likely that his first tutor, the evil warlock and owner of Kemmler's trusted assistant, was likely including necromancy in the coursework.

Thoughts?

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2017, 06:47:25 PM »
I have to agree with you that at the very least, Harry seems to have a particular talent for Necromancy -- Sue alone shows this. It's his first ever necromantic spell and it's a goddamned Tyrannosaurus Rex. That's like deciding to give baseball a shot and hitting an out-of-the-park homer on your first swing. Even if it is, as Harry said, just a matter of raw power, it's a lot of power. If the Paranet Papers' write-up is anything to go by, it was at least twice as much juice as the heart-exploding spell.

Considering that Harry doesn't seem to have known about the laws of magic until he was taught by Ebenezer, it's certainly possible that Justin or Bob included necromancy in what they taught Harry. Necromancy is essentially a subset of constructs, which are perfectly legal, but the extra bits (like the drumming) are unique, so it's unlikely Harry simply extrapolated.

It's also possible Harry went to see Night of the Living Dead and Bob started complaining about all the inaccuracies from "real" zombies. Or Harry started doing one of those 'zombie survival plan' mental exercises and Bob went, "Actually..."

The only real explanation I can think of for him knowing so much about necromancy is that his teacher(s) expected that he'd have to fight necromancers at some point and gave him the heads up. Considering both Ebenezer and Justin had gone up against Kemmler, that much at least makes sense.

So all in all, there are potential alternative explanations, but I can't really think of anything to disprove your idea, since we've seen very little of Justin's teaching ... of... Harry...

 :o

And Elaine.

They shared the lessons and homework and did it together. If what you're positing about Harry is true, then Elaine as Kumori makes that much more sense.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 06:51:29 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2017, 07:11:44 PM »
Hmmm  I mean he might have but it didn't seem like Harry mentions Justin teaching him about it, which you would think he would have at some point introduced Harry to it. 
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2017, 07:32:35 PM »
Groin: true, but Harry never talks or thinks about Justin unless he has to. It's a painful subject, and Harry always deals with those by compartmentalization and not overthinking things.

Mr Death: I could see the Night of the Living Dead thing, but Bob would have had to complain long, and loud, and pretty much interrupt the whole movie. And that's a good movie.

Besides, if Dresden was partial to old monster flicks rather than the newer ones, I'd expect him to quote them more. Plus, wouldn't Bob have done the same for Dracula, or the Wolfman?

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2017, 07:37:59 PM »
Mr Death: I could see the Night of the Living Dead thing, but Bob would have had to complain long, and loud, and pretty much interrupt the whole movie. And that's a good movie.
I didn't mean so much that Bob's complaining would go into that kind of detail, but more more something along the lines of Bob complaining just enough to get Harry curious. If I were Harry and I realized zombies were a real possibility, I'd want to know how to deal with them.

Quote
Besides, if Dresden was partial to old monster flicks rather than the newer ones, I'd expect him to quote them more. Plus, wouldn't Bob have done the same for Dracula, or the Wolfman?
Fair enough. Maybe they were watching one of the remakes.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2017, 10:11:48 PM »

  It is possible that in the course of his apprenticeship that Justin would teach Harry something about necromancy.  Since he was teaching both Elaine and Harry to be enforcers and neglected to tell them either the existence of the White Council or of the Seven Laws of magic, if it served his purpose, I could see Justin teaching them necromancy.   But at this point we don't know if Justin was even interested in the subject..

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2017, 10:45:29 PM »
  It is possible that in the course of his apprenticeship that Justin would teach Harry something about necromancy.  Since he was teaching both Elaine and Harry to be enforcers and neglected to tell them either the existence of the White Council or of the Seven Laws of magic, if it served his purpose, I could see Justin teaching them necromancy.   But at this point we don't know if Justin was even interested in the subject..
He did smuggle what amounts to Kemmler's personal harddrive out of Kemmler's lair. I think that indicates some interest.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2017, 10:56:06 PM »
I feel like he would have said something about Justin teaching him that stuff.  And that's not something Justin would necessarily go in to before he has his hooks fully in them.  Even for isolated kids like them, raising the dead is a well known taboo.

I chalk it up to natural (or possibly unnatural) ability, either due to possessing a piece of Kemmler's spirit (not soul), or something to do with the complicated confluence of energies that went into creating becoming a Starborn.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2017, 11:03:21 PM »
I feel like he would have said something about Justin teaching him that stuff.  And that's not something Justin would necessarily go in to before he has his hooks fully in them.  Even for isolated kids like them, raising the dead is a well known taboo.

I chalk it up to natural (or possibly unnatural) ability, either due to possessing a piece of Kemmler's spirit (not soul), or something to do with the complicated confluence of energies that went into creating becoming a Starborn.
That'd count for ability, but the knowledge to explain to Butters? He must have heard or read it somewhere.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2017, 11:17:18 PM »
In Dead Beat, Harry questions Bob about Kemmler.  However, Butters questions Harry a lot about necromancy – and Harry has answers.  Without hesitation, Harry is able to tell Butters about necromancers, zombies, drummers, the effect of stopping said drummer versus the effect of cutting the zombie off from the energy, why human spirits are only used in necromancy, the two variables (impression and age) which make a zombie or spirit strong, and much, much more.

Quite a bit of that is focused on countering them. Could have been Ebenezar or Justin - and if Justin, it could be wanting his apprentices to be able to do necromancy, or wanting them able to fight necromancers (just because he was a bad guy doesn't mean he wasn't a rival to some other bad guys).

Offline Kimmy T

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2017, 11:44:28 PM »
DonBugen.  You are totally correct in surmising that Justin Dumorne taught Harry and Elaine Necromancy.  It has long been my personal theory that the man Harry and Elaine thought of as Justin Dumorne was in fact ... drumroll ... the dread necromancer Kemmler!  As evidence I present the following facts.

1. The Lineage of Bob's Skull: In Dead Beat Bob specifically states that Harry acquired his skull from the flaming wreckage of Justin Dumorne's house and that Justin Dumorne, in his Warden days, acquired the skull from the flaming wreckage of Kemmler's last stand.  This establishes that Justin was present at Kemmler's last stand and might have actually fought the necromancer.

2. The Corpsetaker: In Dead Beat it was established that the body-switching Corpsetaker is one of Kemmler's discicples.  It is then probable that, as her teacher, Kemmler was the one who taught Corpsetaker how to switch bodes.  It then follows that Kemmler himself was also probably able to switch bodies like Corpsetaker.  My theory is that Kemmler switched bodies with Justin Dumorne during his "final" battle and then assumed the identity of the young Warden.  This would explain Dumorne's switch from upstanding Warden to Evil Warlock.

You are totally right in pointing out that Harry is too informed about Necromancy in Dead Beat and that the spell he used to reanimate Sue was way, way too advanced for a wizard who should have only known the bare basic bones of the theory of Necromancy.  But, if you assume that Harry's teacher Justin Dumorne was in fact Kemmler and probably taught him Necromancy, then things become a lot more clear.

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2017, 02:37:07 AM »
To those of you who believe that Harry's knowledge has more to do with being taught by Justin or Ebenezer on how to fight Necromancers...  I'm starting to doubt it.  I've just re-read chapter six of Dead Beat, and the manner in which Dresden recounts this information is extremely telling.  When Dresden talks about what a necromancer does; he doesn't simply explain it from an outsider's perspective; he goes in depth as to why the necromantic spells work.

For example...

Quote
"Kill their drum."
"Uh, what?"
I shook my head.  "Sorry.  A zombie... well, it isn't really a person with thoughts and feelings and such, but the corpse is used to being a person.  To eating, breathing - and to a beating heart.  That's how the Necromancer controls them.  He plays a beat or some kind of rhythmic music, and uses magic to substitute his beat for the zombie's heartbeat.  He links himself to the beat, the beat to the zombie's heart, and when the necromancer gives a command, as far as the zombie is concerned it's coming from inside him and he wants to do it.  That's how they can control them so completely.
See, I could see a Warden or Eb teaching about the drum, teaching about how the Necromancer controls the creature through the drum.  But I cannot see how the teacher could teach why the drum is important.  To be able to explain what the zombie wants, what it remembers... that sounds more like the teachings that a master of the True Magic would give to his pupil.  Even unbeknownst to him.

Dresden remarks as narrator at the end of Turn Coat that all of the White Council is at a beginner's level of mind magic, due to it being considered a black magic and against the Laws.  If this is the case, why would a council member know this amount about necromancy in order to give to the student?  And I'm quite certain that Bob, having hidden away all of the knowledge he had gained when working with Kemmler, would not have known in the same sort of intimate setting about why necromancy worked the way it does.

Kimmy T:  I'm not quite ready to make the jump to Justin being a bodyswitched Kemmler.  It's clearly possible, but not a theory I've spent much time thinking of.  And if so, that would imply that either Justin was still alive somewhere or that he had also bodyswitched with Elaine before Justin's death.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 02:39:52 AM by DonBugen »

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2017, 02:53:14 AM »
That'd count for ability, but the knowledge to explain to Butters? He must have heard or read it somewhere.
What knowledge?

Quote
“Necromancy is the practice of using magic to muck around with dead things. Necromancers can animate and control corpses, manipulate ghosts, access the knowledge stored in dead brains—"

"They can also do a lot of really freaky things involving the soul. Even in the weird circles, it isn’t the kind of thing you talk about casually. But I’ve heard stories that they can inhabit corpses with their consciousness, possess others. I’ve even heard that they can bring people back from the dead.”

“You’re assuming that what the necromancer brings them back to is better than death. From what I’ve heard, they don’t generally do it for humanitarian reasons. But that might be a load of crap. Like I said, no one talks about it.”

“So. Those were actual zombies?”“Never seen one before,” I said. “But that seems like a pretty good guess.”

“Don’t I remember something about sewing a zombie’s lips shut with thread to kill them? Does that work?” “No clue,” I said. “But you saw those things. If you want to get close enough to find out, be my guest, but I’ll be observing it through a freaking telescope.”

“But how do we stop them?” I sighed. “They’re tough, but they’re still flesh and bone. Massive trauma will do it sooner or later.”

“Zombies follow orders, but they don’t have much more intellect than your average animal. You have to outthink them—or the necromancer who is giving them orders. You could also cut off the necromancer’s control of them.  Kill their drum... A zombie…well, it isn’t really a person with thoughts and feelings and such, but the corpse is used to being a person. To eating, breathing—and to a beating heart. That’s how the necromancer controls them. He plays a beat or some kind of rhythmic music, and uses magic to substitute his beat for the zombie’s heartbeat. He links himself to the beat, the beat to the zombie’s heart, and when the necromancer gives a command, as far as the zombie is concerned it’s coming from inside him and he wants to do it. That’s how they can control them so completely.”

A lot of the info he provides sounds like rumor or common instructional info Eb would have told him.

When Dresden talks about what a necromancer does; he doesn't simply explain it from an outsider's perspective; he goes in depth as to why the necromantic spells work.
The problem with that theory is the earlier quote, where he says he's never seen a zombie before.  There's no reason to lie about that to Butters. 

Offline groinkick

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2017, 03:07:51 AM »
That'd count for ability, but the knowledge to explain to Butters? He must have heard or read it somewhere.

Forgot when in the book he did it, but Harry did memorize the book of Kemmler.  He says so to Mavra at the end.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2017, 03:24:31 AM »
The problem with that theory is the earlier quote, where he says he's never seen a zombie before.  There's no reason to lie about that to Butters.

Assuming most of those explanations were by way of Justin, there's a big difference between him explaining the basics of dark techniques and doing an actual demo. Actually raising a zombie would have tipped Harry and Elaine that he was evil, and risked them running away before he could spring the enthrallment plan (assuming Elaine wasn't in on that voluntarily).

I'm still on the fence about the central question, but I wouldn't rule out Justin as the source of it for that reason.

My theory is that Kemmler switched bodies with Justin Dumorne during his "final" battle and then assumed the identity of the young Warden.

I'm not ruling out that possibility either. But it begs one big question - if Kemmler escaped death by body-swapping into Justin, that means Kemmler was running around with the Council thinking him dead for twenty-plus years, during which he could have completed the Darkhallow that they stopped him from doing in 1961. So ... why did he choose not to?

Forgot when in the book he did it, but Harry did memorize the book of Kemmler.  He says so to Mavra at the end.

Way, way later than he explained the basics to Butters. He and Lash only scanned the book right near the end, shortly before he raised Sue.