Author Topic: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?  (Read 23322 times)

Offline Kindler

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #60 on: September 21, 2017, 07:12:17 PM »
Justin thought he could control a couple of kids, and bend them to his designs over time, leaving them open to enthrallment. And the more I think about it, the more the "enforcers" explanation smells fishy.

It never really made sense to me either. If he wanted loyal enforcers, it would've been far easier to manipulate and brainwash than to enthrall them. Hell, if he had just ASKED Harry to help him, he probably would have, right up until he put Elaine in a brainlock. And his move against Harry involves a straitjacket rather than magic for some reason? The whole thing just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and seems like stupidity on Justin's part—and I never assume stupidity where wizards are concerned.

Offline Froklsnt

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #61 on: September 21, 2017, 07:23:32 PM »
So, in this case, HWWB WAS the entropy curse?

Maybe. We don't know what the ritual looked like when it succeeded, only when it failed and HWWB ate Mag in BR, after which he fled out into the night. Ghost Story seeds the idea that HWWB wanted to test and train Harry, not kill him. And the power dynamics between HWWB and Justin are murky, I've seen theories that HWWB was calling the shots moreso than Justin was in that relationship. Maybe Justin's desire for the star borns was so he could better control HWWB, and without Harry he failed and and the Walker fled out into the world, curious to see what this so-called star born could do.

Offline Froklsnt

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #62 on: September 21, 2017, 07:26:21 PM »
It never really made sense to me either. If he wanted loyal enforcers, it would've been far easier to manipulate and brainwash than to enthrall them. Hell, if he had just ASKED Harry to help him, he probably would have, right up until he put Elaine in a brainlock. And his move against Harry involves a straitjacket rather than magic for some reason? The whole thing just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and seems like stupidity on Justin's part—and I never assume stupidity where wizards are concerned.

The straitjacket calls to mind Thomas' bonds in BR. Maybe Harry was to be the sacrifice in the ritual? Justin was skilled enough to perform two of the roles in the summoning, with Elaine thralled into doing the third, perhaps.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #63 on: September 21, 2017, 07:27:38 PM »
The straitjacket calls to mind Thomas' bonds in BR. Maybe Harry was to be the sacrifice in the ritual? Justin was skilled enough to perform two of the roles in the summoning, with Elaine thralled into doing the third, perhaps.
The reason three were needed in BR was that none of the three had full wizard potential. Harry explains that a full-blown wizard could just do the whole thing himself, so Justin wouldn't have needed Elaine for that.
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Offline dspringer1

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #64 on: September 21, 2017, 08:04:05 PM »
One reason for the ritual is that Justin is about to go public with Harry and Elaine.   They will get introduced to other wizards, learn about the laws of magic, etc.  At some point Justin MUST do this as he cannot isolate himself for decades to train them in secret.  He is a warden after all and has responsibilities.    If Justin was black council, remember they were working towards a war 30 years in the future (during Grave Peril) which means close to 40 years in the future when Justin had Harry as apprentice.  That is a VERY long time to go into hiding or retain the blind trust of an apprentice. 

While it might be perfectly possible to isolate and brainwash kids to be loyal, such behavior is very hard to instill in a very independent minded and stubborn teenager who you have only worked with for 1-2 years.  It might be enough to earn a significant measure of loyalty and trust, but not the level of control Justin might want if he sees Harry (or Elaine) as dangerous weapons even if he trained them for another decade as apprentices. 

Keep in mind that Justin did not come across as super charismatic or loving to Harry.  Also keep in mind that Harry was willing to walk away fro Eb (who he was much more fond of) in a heartbeat when he realized that Eb was acting contrary to the principles he preached.   If Justin was perceptive enough to understand this aspect of Harry's character, then he knew he would not be able to effectively control Harry's behavior while openly doing bad things.   

Offline Mira

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #65 on: September 21, 2017, 10:01:20 PM »
Quote
While it might be perfectly possible to isolate and brainwash kids to be loyal, such behavior is very hard to instill in a very independent minded and stubborn teenager who you have only worked with for 1-2 years.  It might be enough to earn a significant measure of loyalty and trust, but not the level of control Justin might want if he sees Harry (or Elaine) as dangerous weapons even if he trained them for another decade as apprentices. 


But Justin had them for more than one or two years and Harry did love him as a father figure..  So he could have had plenty of love and trust if he wanted it, and did have it.  Also since neither Elaine nor Harry had a clue about the Laws of Magic or the White Council Justin could have told them just about anything as far as using their powers go, they'd have no basis to question the rightness or wrongness of it.  So if he wanted to, I'd think controlling how the viewed things would be pretty easy and there shouldn't have been any reason to go into mind control.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2017, 05:31:51 PM »
One reason for the ritual is that Justin is about to go public with Harry and Elaine.   They will get introduced to other wizards, learn about the laws of magic, etc.  At some point Justin MUST do this as he cannot isolate himself for decades to train them in secret.  He is a warden after all and has responsibilities.    If Justin was black council, remember they were working towards a war 30 years in the future (during Grave Peril) which means close to 40 years in the future when Justin had Harry as apprentice.  That is a VERY long time to go into hiding or retain the blind trust of an apprentice. 

While it might be perfectly possible to isolate and brainwash kids to be loyal, such behavior is very hard to instill in a very independent minded and stubborn teenager who you have only worked with for 1-2 years.  It might be enough to earn a significant measure of loyalty and trust, but not the level of control Justin might want if he sees Harry (or Elaine) as dangerous weapons even if he trained them for another decade as apprentices. 

Keep in mind that Justin did not come across as super charismatic or loving to Harry.  Also keep in mind that Harry was willing to walk away fro Eb (who he was much more fond of) in a heartbeat when he realized that Eb was acting contrary to the principles he preached.   If Justin was perceptive enough to understand this aspect of Harry's character, then he knew he would not be able to effectively control Harry's behavior while openly doing bad things.   

Harry walked away from Eb when he was a grown man, after he perceived him as walking away from the principles he taught him. Harry certainly loved and respected him more than Justin, because the circumstances were significantly different. Justin's sudden betrayal made Ebenezer's kindness and patience way, way more impactful.

On the flip side of things, if he understood Harry's stubborn moral code and realized he wouldn't side with him, then his approach was actually dumber. The kids sleep in his house. He, presumably, prepares meals for them. It's as simple and straightforward as drugging dinner and enthralling them both while they're asleep, or keeping one down while he works on the other. He doesn't even need to head to the pharmacy or anything; he can brew an effective potion with Bob. The whole process could've been done painlessly and simply, which is why his approach seems so hackneyed.

It makes me think that either: A) Something changed for Justin and he had to change his plans on the fly, B) Something about Justin changed, and he had his switch flipped from "a-hole" to "evil," or C) This is an "Evil Cannot Comprehend Good" situation and Justin thought that Harry would be okay with what went on.

I'm not necessarily saying that Lea and Harry and Elaine's interpretations of Justin's actions are definitely wrong, just that the events from Harry's perspective raise questions for me. I'd really like to know what Justin said to Elaine before he whammied her.


Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2017, 06:37:10 PM »
Recall that the reason Harry found out about it was that he skipped school. Justin had been working on Elaine while Harry was gone, and the set up that Harry found there was almost certainly supposed to have been cleaned up by the time he got home. It seems sloppy and hackneyed because Harry blundered into the middle of it.

If Harry hadn't decided to play hooky, he wouldn't have suspected anything until it was already too late.
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Offline forumghost

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2017, 12:30:47 AM »
That was more like top fifty to a hundred overall, and that estimate was before a lot of the Council's casualties and Harry's own growth. He's probably at or very near the top if you look only at his age cohort.

That said, given that even Butters is apparently a better Wizard then him (in spite of having literally zero magical talent) Harry may well be over-estimating himself.

He's In the top 50 for raw power, but in terms of actually ability he's like, apprentice level. He just compensates for it with raw energy.

Recall that the reason Harry found out about it was that he skipped school. Justin had been working on Elaine while Harry was gone, and the set up that Harry found there was almost certainly supposed to have been cleaned up by the time he got home. It seems sloppy and hackneyed because Harry blundered into the middle of it.

If Harry hadn't decided to play hooky, he wouldn't have suspected anything until it was already too late.

True. What I wonder though is; why enthrall them to begin with? It's quite clear looking at Harry's memories with Justin that he was trying to go with old-school indoctrination at first- which is kinda a waste of time if you're just gonna mind-jack them.

Something must have happened to accelerate his plans...
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 12:48:48 AM by forumghost »

Offline Mira

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2017, 11:29:15 AM »
Quote
True. What I wonder though is; why enthrall them to begin with? It's quite clear looking at Harry's memories with Justin that he was trying to go with old-school indoctrination at first- which is kinda a waste of time if you're just gonna mind-jack them.

Because perhaps Justin failed to take in account the natural tendency for fifteen/sixteen year old teenagers to give you the finger as a matter of course.
Quote
That said, given that even Butters is apparently a better Wizard then him (in spite of having literally zero magical talent) Harry may well be over-estimating himself.

He's In the top 50 for raw power, but in terms of actually ability he's like, apprentice level. He just compensates for it with raw energy.

Which Harry is constantly saying, or he says he is a lazy wizard, so I doubt he over estimates himself, if anything he underestimates himself....  However when he was master to Molly as Eb predicted he became a better wizard because he was forced to study his wizard skills to teach her and to lead by example.

Offline Froklsnt

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2017, 12:04:39 PM »
It's quite clear looking at Harry's memories with Justin that he was trying to go with old-school indoctrination at first- which is kinda a waste of time if you're just gonna mind-jack them.

Something must have happened to accelerate his plans...

I agree, enthralling them doesn't square with the rest of his time with Harry. Given that he was a known associate of Margaret, I don't buy the "flipped a switch" reasoning. Something bumping up the time tables makes more sense. The fact that the HWWB ritual is on a clock strikes me as relevant.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 04:19:58 PM by Froklsnt »

Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #71 on: September 24, 2017, 12:07:25 AM »
If he truly was being prepared to learn necromancy, then he would at least be well versed in ectomancy.
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Offline Phariah

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #72 on: September 24, 2017, 12:14:25 AM »
I dunno. to me he was teaching a weapon. evocations/ attacking/ defending, a warrior. I mean harry says he is good at thaumaturgy, but he is a natural at evocations if I recall correctly (generating/ moving energy I think it was.)
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #73 on: September 25, 2017, 05:42:51 PM »
I chalked it up to teen-aged rebellion, that Justin didn't take into account.  Though having his timetable pushed might have something to do with it too.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #74 on: September 25, 2017, 07:17:02 PM »
It's a mostly-universal truth that people forget what they were like as kids. That's why a lot of kids in TV shows are written really unrealistically -- the writers don't remember what real kids are like, so they write them as either miniature adults, or as idiots.

That's for people who haven't been teenagers for 10-20 years. Apply that to someone who hasn't been a kid for 100 years.

I would find it totally believable that Justin just didn't factor in teenage rebellion.
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