Starborn idea

[groinkick]

The pentagram does have the appearance of how a star would be drawn.  Could each point on the pentagram represent a type of requirement for a Starborn to be created?  More likely a Starborn is based on some kind of astrology or something, but wanted to see if the pentagram could be part of the equation.  It's important to Harry, and I think his mom provided him with the the necklace?  I dunno, just a random thought I had.

[Snark Knight]

The pentagram does have the appearance of how a star would be drawn.  Could each point on the pentagram represent a type of requirement for a Starborn to be created?  More likely a Starborn is based on some kind of astrology or something, but wanted to see if the pentagram could be part of the equation.  It's important to Harry, and I think his mom provided him with the the necklace?  I dunno, just a random thought I had.

I'm not aware of any five-pointed star shapes in the classical constellations, but there might be some sort of less direct connection. But if one of the ingredients for a Starborn was a deliberate ritual by / around the pregnant mother during the several months window of the astrological conjunction (we know that component is somewhat broad since both Harry and Elaine meet it despite being a few months different in age), it very likely could have been done in the usual pentagram format.

[groinkick]

I'm not aware of any five-pointed star shapes in the classical constellations, but there might be some sort of less direct connection. But if one of the ingredients for a Starborn was a deliberate ritual by / around the pregnant mother during the several months window of the astrological conjunction (we know that component is somewhat broad since both Harry and Elaine meet it despite being a few months different in age), it very likely could have been done in the usual pentagram format.

I was thinking maybe a magical ritual say with 5 people or objects of power, points in time, something like that.

[Mira]

I was thinking maybe a magical ritual say with 5 people or objects of power, points in time, something like that.

I wouldn't rule that out, Lash told Harry his mother conceived him "a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstance that would give a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."  So it isn't anything simple, and you also have to add the partner she chose to be Harry's father.  Malcolm is important in this as well, knowing and loving him gave her the strength to leave Lord Raith and then to conceive a star child.  Perhaps because a mortal born with that kind of power could easily turn into a megalomaniac.  Because he inherited Malcolm's disposition, Harry seems protected from that.

[jonas]

The pentagram does have the appearance of how a star would be drawn.  Could each point on the pentagram represent a type of requirement for a Starborn to be created?  More likely a Starborn is based on some kind of astrology or something, but wanted to see if the pentagram could be part of the equation.  It's important to Harry, and I think his mom provided him with the the necklace?  I dunno, just a random thought I had.

The Pentagram, the stars and stones curse, the 5 stars on Lady Nights neck when the sky is devoid of stars in CH and a few other things lead me to believe there are 5 major repeating starborn patterns(Harry vs Thomas is a good example of starborn differentiation). If you par down most pantheons you can find the five major god/ess's. An also possible corralates to the 5 planets(eight astrological) visible from earth with the naked eye as defined by Greek and Roman astrologists. So 5 and 3, just like the number of Holy relics plus nails of the sword. the thing is, each one probably represents at its kernel the whole of a 'star' and that gets broken down piecemeal in reality(except angels, they represent the entirety of one, an absolute without room for change) So if you put them to the current agenda in the Fae, each line of queens/knights is one being, then the kings are 2 beings of their own(each starborn culminates as that kernel, that kernel is the mortal ability to change) and the 5th is probably in the fomor/N archetype starborn.
*the hard thing to explain but which i'm pretty sure we will see some of eventually, is instead of bringing in some identity like a mantle portion, if you die like TWC did you become the identity of the 'star' itself. Which may be why Lasciel has a greek woman as what Harry presumes is close to her true looks, even though angels have existed since they did creation, ergo before actual human mortals. On a lower level Harry did the same thing I think, being both alive and malleable but also the spirit/Mantle of Dresden at the same time.(you wanna be absolute, you gotta get absolutely killed out THEN come back, he just broke the lid on his mortality cup as of yet)

**current line up is Harry, Molly, Murphy, Marcone and.... Ms Beckett perhaps? Or maybe Grey, hard to identify the last one so far. ***oops, I plum forgot about Elaine, #5 is Elaine.

[Kindler]

I was thinking maybe a magical ritual say with 5 people or objects of power, points in time, something like that.

Interesting thought. Is it possible Raith realized what she was trying to do and tried to kill her before she pulled it off? If he had a connection to He Who Walks Behind prior to Blood Rites, it'd be in his interest to prevent a Starborn.

[DonBugen]

The Pentagram, the stars and stones curse, the 5 stars on Lady Nights neck when the sky is devoid of stars in CH and a few other things lead me to believe there are 5 major repeating starborn patterns(Harry vs Thomas is a good example of starborn differentiation). If you par down most pantheons you can find the five major god/ess's. An also possible corralates to the 5 planets(eight astrological) visible from earth with the naked eye as defined by Greek and Roman astrologists. So 5 and 3, just like the number of Holy relics plus nails of the sword. the thing is, each one probably represents at its kernel the whole of a 'star' and that gets broken down piecemeal in reality(except angels, they represent the entirety of one, an absolute without room for change) So if you put them to the current agenda in the Fae, each line of queens/knights is one being, then the kings are 2 beings of their own(each starborn culminates as that kernel, that kernel is the mortal ability to change) and the 5th is probably in the fomor/N archetype starborn.
*the hard thing to explain but which i'm pretty sure we will see some of eventually, is instead of bringing in some identity like a mantle portion, if you die like TWC did you become the identity of the 'star' itself. Which may be why Lasciel has a greek woman as what Harry presumes is close to her true looks, even though angels have existed since they did creation, ergo before actual human mortals. On a lower level Harry did the same thing I think, being both alive and malleable but also the spirit/Mantle of Dresden at the same time.(you wanna be absolute, you gotta get absolutely killed out THEN come back, he just broke the lid on his mortality cup as of yet)

**current line up is Harry, Molly, Murphy, Marcone and.... Ms Beckett perhaps? Or maybe Grey, hard to identify the last one so far. ***oops, I plum forgot about Elaine, #5 is Elaine.

I normally don't quote entire posts, but this one just kinda calls for it.  Wow.

Ok, I'm kinda following, but could you clear up some things?

5 stars on Lady Night's neck? When was that?
Is Thomas a Starborn? Has anyone other than Harry been called a Starborn?
I get the repetition of 5, where is 3?

And then you completely lost me when you started talking about kernels of a star. I don't know what your list of characters at the end is supposed to mean. Are you saying that all these people are also starborn?

Don't get me wrong; I -love- complex theory. I just don't understand this one yet, but want to. Please elaborate, with sources if possible!

[Rasins]

You mean the five have to come together somehow and "BE" the starborn?

[jonas]

I normally don't quote entire posts, but this one just kinda calls for it.  Wow.

Ok, I'm kinda following, but could you clear up some things?

5 stars on Lady Night's neck? When was that?
Is Thomas a Starborn? Has anyone other than Harry been called a Starborn?
I get the repetition of 5, where is 3?

And then you completely lost me when you started talking about kernels of a star. I don't know what your list of characters at the end is supposed to mean. Are you saying that all these people are also starborn?

Don't get me wrong; I -love- complex theory. I just don't understand this one yet, but want to. Please elaborate, with sources if possible!

1 In CH when Harry is at the stone table to receive the mantle, which the first time he was there in SK the sky had more than the five stars iirc, the sky was otherwise empty on this event.
2No, but come on, he was born ON valentines day? If there's not a confluence around that, i'll eat my shoe.
3 what do you mean the repetition of three? the 3 nails of the cross, each sword with it's attendant angel? I think each has basically given up their meddling ability to gracethe sword and (rightful)mortal bearer with that choice ability. Interestingly most power gives choices, theirs is literal empowering of the ability to choose. Not sure if this is actually what your asking about.. between them and the 3 queen/Hecate, 3 is a repeatable ideal found in the pantheon's(hell even 3 walkers coming for Harry)
4 The Kernel thing... So you know how ancient stories have gods coming from the stars/planets? With the Greek's actually having 5 ones named directly from our solar system? I think this is why there are so many starborn, as many as the number of stars in the sky, and just as varied. Being reborn endlessly throughout the human race as the basest avatar level, without power to change into a more serious version because 99.9% of them don't have a huge gob of magic/creation to grow and change and effect the world with(matches woj about most starborn never have much power) And.. this is why we have various ppl like Merlin, Odin, GK, ect whom have similar stories, dispositions or features, they share the same start point and 'archetype' starborn pattern that then went through. (Also why so many see Molly and Murphy in Mab)

(click to show/hide)

Random  tangent, these starborn like Harry don't just become more like the thing, they also push off aspects or create them in those they interact with, that's why I named Ms. Beckett as a potential, She's Morgana to Marcones Arthur. The hidden bitch who secretly is trying to take down the kingdom, whom he sleeps with but has not married, bastard in the future here? But she only has some of those aspects on her own, in some ways she fit's directly because of Marcone's influence on her over anything in her own backstory. But the person whom is probably the same star as Morgana isn't Beckett. Which might also be just because ppl confabulate history and it does indeed vary every generation to a point. Tangent over, mostly...

So bunches of starborn, but 5 specific ones that matter in each generation. So I think the group I listed are all their own individual stars to be born from, yes. From here I should probably take a breather as my mind is still mushy this morning/afternoon. There's more I wish to say, but I can't grasp those articles to try and put on paper atm.

Do wanna try and elaborate on this, Mantles are made from bringing/breaking down pieces of that memetic power inside, gods from the stars. Angels from having your own memetic mojo and still dying, you imprint over your star, it instead becomes more YOU. Which is also a comparable myth on what happens to many mortal hero's when they become god's, they get a constellation of their own kinda thing.

[groinkick]

You mean the five have to come together somehow and "BE" the starborn?

I'm not sure.  I mean my opinion is that Maggie may have actually done the ritual, or whatever, and then backed out.  When she met Harry's dad, and Harry was conceived it wasn't her intention to create a Starborn, but the preparation she had done before stuck, and her body was primed to make one.

[DonBugen]

Has there ever been any WOJ on what a Starborn actually is, other than having power over Outsiders? All I know is what is in the books, and it's nothing but knowing references from other people.

I have absolutely nothing to counter on this argument, but that's mostly because it seems to be presupposition built on presupposition built on patterns in legend. Its hard to argue for or against hidden lore.  Which is not to say that it might not be true; it's a really cool theory that supposes a good deal on ritual and numerology. But I like my WAGs to be a bit more grounded before they become headcanon.

I always thought it odd, by the way, that Elaine had a pentacle amulet just like Harry's. Thomas I could see; it was a gift from their mother. But why Elaine? Did she just really like Harry's and get one at a store? Or does it also signify something deeper?

[groinkick]

Has there ever been any WOJ on what a Starborn actually is, other than having power over Outsiders? All I know is what is in the books, and it's nothing but knowing references from other people.

I have absolutely nothing to counter on this argument, but that's mostly because it seems to be presupposition built on presupposition built on patterns in legend. Its hard to argue for or against hidden lore.  Which is not to say that it might not be true; it's a really cool theory that supposes a good deal on ritual and numerology. But I like my WAGs to be a bit more grounded before they become headcanon.

I always thought it odd, by the way, that Elaine had a pentacle amulet just like Harry's. Thomas I could see; it was a gift from their mother. But why Elaine? Did she just really like Harry's and get one at a store? Or does it also signify something deeper?

I think Jim said something about when a child is born is important.  Said that Elaine may be or could have been Starborn for that reason (don't remember exactly how he said it).

[jonas]

Has there ever been any WOJ on what a Starborn actually is, other than having power over Outsiders? All I know is what is in the books, and it's nothing but knowing references from other people.

I have absolutely nothing to counter on this argument, but that's mostly because it seems to be presupposition built on presupposition built on patterns in legend. Its hard to argue for or against hidden lore.  Which is not to say that it might not be true; it's a really cool theory that supposes a good deal on ritual and numerology. But I like my WAGs to be a bit more grounded before they become headcanon.

I always thought it odd, by the way, that Elaine had a pentacle amulet just like Harry's. Thomas I could see; it was a gift from their mother. But why Elaine? Did she just really like Harry's and get one at a store? Or does it also signify something deeper?

Theres a woj on Elaine's amulet btw

In the early books you mention that Elaine has the same pentacle as Harry.  Is that significant or have you changed your mind on?
No it's significant.  There is a reason for that.  Harry and Elaine come from the same philosophical background as far as magic is concerned... Or at least so he believes in any case.  I guess we will have to see if Elaine thinks the same way.  Who here has read White Knight so far?  Yah, Elaine doesn't think exactly the same way as Harry when it comes to the use of magic, but at the same time though they are not exactly on a totally different page either.  It's significant that they both have the same symbol.  It says something about what they think and what they believe.

throw this in since your talking about it

Q:  Is Elaine another candidate to wield power over Outsiders (the way Harry supposedly is)?
A:  Yes.  There’s a reason Justin picked the two of them.

*there's probably things to support these prepositions and knowing references, I just forget the little details. an the one place i'd stored all my data was kinda destroyed/taken away unfortunately.

[wardenferry419]

I like that part about how Elaine does not think about magic in the same way as Harry. Feels like it has meaning.

[exartiem]

The five points of the pentagram of magic: earth, wind, fire, water and spirit.

Perhaps to create a starborn, you need all of these to be present in the parents.  earth: the mother's father is a farmer, works the earth.  water: perhaps Malcolm's dad was a sailor.  Fire: she is a wizard and wields the fire of magic.  Wind: they are on the run, not bound, blowing free.

Spirit could be where she erred with Papa Raith if she misinterpreted spirit as passion, when it actually means love.  It was when she was in love with Malcolm that the final ingredient was achieved.

Just an off-the-top-of-my-head theory.