Starborn idea

[Rasins]

While we know there are conditions that must be in place to have a hope of producing a child with Starborn potential, I don't think it's necessarily as simple as ticking things off of a list.

[kazimmoinuddin]

Once a star born is created, is that part of its nature passed onto its offspring.

[MarcelRED147]

The five points of the pentagram of magic: earth, wind, fire, water and spirit.

Perhaps to create a starborn, you need all of these to be present in the parents.  earth: the mother's father is a farmer, works the earth.  water: perhaps Malcolm's dad was a sailor.  Fire: she is a wizard and wields the fire of magic.  Wind: they are on the run, not bound, blowing free.

Spirit could be where she erred with Papa Raith if she misinterpreted spirit as passion, when it actually means love.  It was when she was in love with Malcolm that the final ingredient was achieved.

Just an off-the-top-of-my-head theory.

If that were the case then one of Raith's parents would have to be a sailor and the two would need to be on the run too. Plus magic seems like a combination of all five rather than a representation of one of the elements.

I think you may be on to certain qualities in the parents being a factor though. But I think timing and other events which are harder to "tick off a list" would be involved. I really like the idea of each element in the five points of magic being represented in some way. Has it ever been said that Margaret was trying for a starborn? I think there may have been a WoJ, but I can't remember for sure.

[Mira]

If that were the case then one of Raith's parents would have to be a sailor and the two would need to be on the run too. Plus magic seems like a combination of all five rather than a representation of one of the elements.

I think you may be on to certain qualities in the parents being a factor though. But I think timing and other events which are harder to "tick off a list" would be involved. I really like the idea of each element in the five points of magic being represented in some way. Has it ever been said that Margaret was trying for a starborn? I think there may have been a WoJ, but I can't remember for sure.

Yes, Lash told Harry as much in White Night.  No, she didn't call him star born, that is a term someone else gave him... But she said..

page 363

"It is relevant," Lash said, "Because of the circumstances of your birth--because of whyyou were born, Hary.  Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."

She goes on to say a few lines later;

"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."

She nearly confesses to Harry in Blood Rites what she did, I don't have time to look up the exact quote now, but in his vision of her in his soul gaze with Thomas, she speaks of her arrogance to do what she did in creating him.. In  Dead Beat his dream about Malcolm he also speaks of the unfair burden he and Margaret placed on him...  To my way of thinking that pretty much spells it out that they deliberately conceived Harry to be a star born.

[Kindler]

Yes, Lash told Harry as much in White Night.  No, she didn't call him star born, that is a term someone else gave him... But she said..

page 363

"It is relevant," Lash said, "Because of the circumstances of your birth--because of whyyou were born, Hary.  Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."

She goes on to say a few lines later;

"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."

She nearly confesses to Harry in Blood Rites what she did, I don't have time to look up the exact quote now, but in his vision of her in his soul gaze with Thomas, she speaks of her arrogance to do what she did in creating him.. In  Dead Beat his dream about Malcolm he also speaks of the unfair burden he and Margaret placed on him...  To my way of thinking that pretty much spells it out that they deliberately conceived Harry to be a star born.

Does that imply that Malcolm was complicit in engineering a starborn? I've never considered that before. That puts a different spin on his character for me. I've never really thought about Malcolm, to be honest, which is unfortunate now that I am. I always kind of chalked him up as a vanilla mortal who got swept up in a romance and found that the world was way more complicated than he thought. But if he was complicit, and there was something specific about Malcolm that Margaret was looking for...

If there's anything to the Five Points of Starborn Genesis idea, maybe it was Malcolm's spirit that contributed? Harry seems to get a lot of his altruism from his dad.

Lash's statement implies that Margaret got the strength to escape Raith in order to make a starborn; did she realize that Raith had Outsider sponsorship? Did one of her contact among the Courts show her the Outer Gates, and realized that the next generation needed a starborn to combat them? Maybe she understood that she'd never be able to make a starborn with Raith, and started looking for someone compatible?

Or—and this is a whole lot of conjecture—did she somehow find out about Nemesis, realized the threat it represented, and do everything she could to stop it? Maybe... after being infected herself?

[Mira]

Does that imply that Malcolm was complicit in engineering a starborn? I've never considered that before. That puts a different spin on his character for me. I've never really thought about Malcolm, to be honest, which is unfortunate now that I am. I always kind of chalked him up as a vanilla mortal who got swept up in a romance and found that the world was way more complicated than he thought. But if he was complicit, and there was something specific about Malcolm that Margaret was looking for...

In my opinion he was, again it is cryptic what he tells Harry, but it fits that Malcolm had a pretty good idea of why he and Margaret were conceiving Harry.

"I wish I could have been with you longer.  I wish I could have helped you prepare for it."

Harry asks, "for what?"

But his father doesn't answer.

In Blood Rites Margaret tells Harry;
"I was arrogant.  I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone.."

What kind of burden could she possibly have laid on a fetus or a new born babe for that matter?  Only one thing I can imagine, since Harry wasn't born a king or a god, she made him a star born...

[exartiem]

If that were the case then one of Raith's parents would have to be a sailor and the two would need to be on the run too. Plus magic seems like a combination of all five rather than a representation of one of the elements.

I think you may be on to certain qualities in the parents being a factor though. But I think timing and other events which are harder to "tick off a list" would be involved. I really like the idea of each element in the five points of magic being represented in some way. Has it ever been said that Margaret was trying for a starborn? I think there may have been a WoJ, but I can't remember for sure.

I wasn't trying to give specific ingredients (except for the love one).  I was trying to make the point that even if one knows the receipe, the ingredients are so unspecific that it's virtually impossible to do it on purpose.  It's like the recipe says one fruit, one vegetable, one spice, a liquid, and heat.

It may be that you can create more than one type of Star born.  Maggie was trying to create a specific type, missed with Thomas and succeeded accidentally with Harry.

[Zohak]

Unless she was tapinging into The Being(aka. Star Born) that sponsored Lord Raith or was
the primorial souce of the white court vamps .
The special circumstances being at a time holloween when dimensional barriers where weak
enof to tap into The Being an Outer God of the lovecraft sort.

[wardenferry419]

If making a star-born is a lengthy, multi-step process and Elaine has the potential to be a starborn; then who were Elaine's parents that they: A. knew the process, B. could follow the process, and C. decided that the result of the process needed to be conceived?

[Mira]

If making a star-born is a lengthy, multi-step process and Elaine has the potential to be a starborn; then who were Elaine's parents that they: A. knew the process, B. could follow the process, and C. decided that the result of the process needed to be conceived?

Yeah, wouldn't be a kick in the head at the end that after all of this it isn't Harry after all but Elaine?  Nah .... But we've never heard a word about her parentage.  So she still could be..

[Rasins]

I believe that Margaret DID know of the need for a Starborn.  I don't believe that Thomas was her first attempt.  It think she was just enjoying great sex.

But, it's entirely possible that she learned of the need, and maybe the process, for creating a Starborn, from Pappa Raith's library.  And then she started working on a means of escape.

Further, I believe that Justin was in on the plan. 

Here's a further WAG ... Margart was trying to get the Vampire courts together to take over the outer gates.

[jonas]

Taking my earlier 5 starborn wag vs the name The Circle and it's possible representation in the pentagram, I think the whole point of what they were up to was to produce and control those 5 starborn. The pentacle/elements/starborn under THEIR Will/control as mortal's, The Circle in the pentagram. So... yea this OP has it pretty close to what probably was. Rather than a simple ritual though, I'd say it was finding what keys unlocked which Paths from the stars and turning them in sequence.

[Snark Knight]

I like that part about how Elaine does not think about magic in the same way as Harry. Feels like it has meaning.

Cough - Kumori - cough.

[Mira]

I believe that Margaret DID know of the need for a Starborn.  I don't believe that Thomas was her first attempt.  It think she was just enjoying great sex.

But, it's entirely possible that she learned of the need, and maybe the process, for creating a Starborn, from Pappa Raith's library.  And then she started working on a means of escape.

Further, I believe that Justin was in on the plan. 

Here's a further WAG ... Margart was trying to get the Vampire courts together to take over the outer gates.

I doubt it as far as Thomas was concerned, evidence for that is the fact that she left him behind when she ran off with Malcolm.  If she was trying with Lord Raith to conceive a star child her motives were way different from what they were when she conceived Harry....  Lash confirms this by saying meeting Malcolm gave her the courage to leave Lord Raith, then she went about the business of conceiving Harry.  Since we don't know the exact alignments, genes, etc to make a star child, it is unclear ..  If what you are saying is true, why didn't she just stick around and have another baby with Lord Raith if she failed the first time?

[exartiem]

I don't think she ran off WITH Malcolm.  I think she met him while on the run.

I think she was trying to create a starborn with LR.  She told Eb that she was with LR to accomplish something, that they had a plan.

I think it more likely that Elaine's parents didn't know, but someone (Justin) saw the circumstances of her birth and figured it was possible.  He then killed the parents and arranged to become the foster parent.  IIRC he adopted Harry for pretty much the same reason.