Denarian Dresden

[Con]

Nic has all but confirmed he fights Outsiders.

And I agree with Anubissama that Mab is not least Evil. Add to the fact that she commands thousands of evil beings. Add to that fact the revelation in Cold Case. Mab is not the lesser evil. Jim calls her the most predictale evil despite the fact that the Fae are notoriously not predictable. Dresden had personal experience with the Denarians and had bested them twice. Their number of evil beings is thirty not thousands plus a couple dozen squires. Dresden also had knowledge of how Lasciel worked through her shadow who turned into Lash.

I like to believe that with his use of soulfire Harry could have done something similar with Lasciel. or atleast provided some interesting contrast as mentioned above. Soulfire and Hellfire.

[Arjan]

Nic has all but confirmed he fights Outsiders.

Which all but confirms he doesn't.

And I agree with Anubissama that Mab is not least Evil. Add to the fact that she commands thousands of evil beings. Add to that fact the revelation in Cold Case.

That evil is not that different from the evil of most nations who in times of war and desperation conscript their youth and use them as fodder. Mab probably takes better care of her people than the generals and politicians in the first world war did.

Mab is not the lesser evil. Jim calls her the most predictale evil despite the fact that the Fae are notoriously not predictable.

Mab is more predictable because she has a purpose. Because she has nature, rules.

The only thing predictable about the denarians is that they will lie to you and betray you.

Dresden had personal experience with the Denarians and had bested them twice. Their number of evil beings is thirty not thousands plus a couple dozen squires.

And yet those thirty do more evil than all Mabs cohorts together. That is because it is their purpose to do evil things.

Dresden also had knowledge of how Lasciel worked through her shadow who turned into Lash.

I like to believe that with his use of soulfire Harry could have done something similar with Lasciel. or atleast provided some interesting contrast as mentioned above. Soulfire and Hellfire.

Soulfire and hellfire can not be combined, you have to choose between the two.

[Anubissama]

You can't say that the Denari are Capital E Evil without knowing their goals.

Apparently, you are quite okay with calling Mab a "predictable evil" or a lesser evil while her actions include things like: torturing people into insanity for decades, killing sentient feeling beings on the spot for no good reason, abducting babies and turning them into child soldiers. You accept all this because of her purpose fighting Outsiders.

As far as we know Nic is also against the Outsiders, he seemed genuinely outraged and upset about the fact that a Denari might be nemfected. And just saying I don't believe him isn't argument enough. The whole aquarium scene implies heavily that Nic is aware of the Outsider threat and works against it, be it by cruel means but it seems to be his goal.

He is angry at the notion that a Denari is infected, he is in principal against the Red Court who works together with the Outsiders. You have plenty of evidence that he is an "ends justify the means" antihero.

Furthermore, you can't say "because they oppose the White God they are E evil'. Remember in the Dresdenverse the genocide of the Firstborn of Egypt is a real historical event. So the "good" guys are not above killing children and babies to make a political statement. As such the Angel side doesn't hold the morally superior position any longer, and just being against them doesn't make you automatically E evil.

Rememebr, history is written by the victor, and if there is anything the church is good at its propaganda. Maybe Lucifer was a proud rebel spitting in the face of a loving father, or maybe he was a freedom fighter trying to save his brethren from tyranny and enslavement and was ready to fight for what he believed to be the right thing, damn the costs.

[Snark Knight]

Which all but confirms he doesn't.
And yet those thirty do more evil than all Mabs cohorts together. That is because it is their purpose to do evil things. Soulfire and hellfire can not be combined, you have to choose between the two.

Agreed that the Denarians are worse. But I don't think we can conclude Nicodemus' reaction to the probable Nem-fection of one of his own was a lie. Which is the more effective at deceit - lying all the time, or some lies mixed with some truths? And if Deirdre was just lying outright that their agenda is "to save the world", why? She had to know there was no was Harry would have believed that at the time.

Even if Hell's apocalypse isn't primarily meant as a drastic measure against Outsiders, an Empty Night win condition for the Outsiders would still bone Nic's plans to achieve the apocalypse on his terms. They're at minimum a competitor, if not right up there with Heaven as his main enemies.

[Arjan]

Of course anicodemus mixes truth with lies but consider the following.

We have here one isolated statement without any supporting evidence presented as evidence for Nicodemus motivations and aims. Exactly the thing he would most likely lie about. Ask Kringle.

Then we add the context. Nicodemus had a motive. He wanted to show Harry that they had compatible goals. That Harry could work with Nicodemus, that he could work with Lasciel.

Nicodemus had a good reason to lie, he had a good reason to invent common enemies.

But if Nicodemus was really such an asset against the outsiders Mab and Odin would not work against him.

So at least his statement proves nothing but considering the known context and his career I think we can safely assume it is a lie.

[Arjan]

The morality of the white god is not a clear thing in the Dresden verse but if he promotes free will and offers us the choice between good and evil he is both.

But the knights of the cross are not the white god, they are his PR department. They make him look good.

The fallen are designed as their counterparts. They are as close to absolute evil as Michael is to absolute good. It defines their purpose. They are there to give you that other choice.

Both Uriel and the fallen are after your soul. Maybe one should consider other options. Call Odin if drinking and fighting are your thing,

[DonBugen]

Apparently, you are quite okay with calling Mab a "predictable evil" or a lesser evil while her actions include things like: torturing people into insanity for decades, killing sentient feeling beings on the spot for no good reason, abducting babies and turning them into child soldiers. You accept all this because of her purpose fighting Outsiders.

So, these are Mab's 'evil' qualities?  Her epic level of torture for a traitor who nearly destroyed the balance of the world forever (and arguably could have killed it), murder, and her drafting of young fae to grow up to be soldiers?  I mean, she's not a saint or anything - but the Denarians, less evil than Mab?

Do you remember what Nicodemus' plans were in Death Masks?  To take an absolutely horrific plague that killed everyone that caught it in horrible, twisted, torturous ways, and to go to O'Hare Airport and spread it across the nation, and to the rest of the world.  To basically have a worldwide pandemic, killing billions in excruciatingly painful, torturous ways, to kickstart the apocalypse.  And that was just one of their many twisted plans that they've done through the millenia.

You could certainly argue that his plans in Small Favor weren't so horrible, but that's only because Nicodemus doesn't go out and state what he wants to do with Ivy.  It's clear what he can do with Ivy; like start a nuclear holocaust.  Or bring some Old Ones back into existence.  Granted, the second one isn't probably likely, but the first one is directly in line with his original goals.

As far as we know Nic is also against the Outsiders, he seemed genuinely outraged and upset about the fact that a Denari might be nemfected. And just saying I don't believe him isn't argument enough. The whole aquarium scene implies heavily that Nic is aware of the Outsider threat and works against it, be it by cruel means but it seems to be his goal.

Well, yes, the Aquarium scene does pretty much state that he's aware of Nemesis and that he works against it.  But that's far from saying that Nicodemus' ultimate goal is to stop the Outsiders.  He never goes so far.  All he really demonstrates is that he recognizes them as another power, similar to the Red Court at the time, which he is shocked and infuriated to learn has infiltrated his ranks.

Furthermore, you can't say "because they oppose the White God they are E evil'. Remember in the Dresdenverse the genocide of the Firstborn of Egypt is a real historical event. So the "good" guys are not above killing children and babies to make a political statement. As such the Angel side doesn't hold the morally superior position any longer, and just being against them doesn't make you automatically E evil.

Did you just hold up Mab's contracted drafting of fae children into her army as an evil event, but then hold up an act which emancipated an entire nation of slaves as a Captial E Evil?

I'm not gonna get all theological with you, but let's just look at the facts.  Assuming that the historical event in the Dresdenverse follows the events recounted in Bible:
-Egypt had already had every Hebrew person enslaved, for generations, working them to the bone.
-Egypt had already called for mass infanticide for a period of time among the Hebrews; that's why Moses was hidden in the reeds.  It was commanded that the infants be killed when they were born.
-Pharaoh was given nine previous demonstrations of the power of TWG, and on each individual occasion he was given the choice to let the tens of thousands of men, women, and children go.  At this point, TWG had already turned the river to blood, blotted out the sun, caused rampant disease and death among the livestock, and showered firey hailstones on the land of Egypt.  Pharaoh knew what TWG was capable of.  Furthermore, he was told what would happen if he didn't free his slaves, and still chose to let a portion of his nation's children die.
-The last plague, the killing of the first-born, mirrors in a much, much smaller way what Egypt was already doing to the Hebrew nation.

This is a war between TWG and the (presumed) mortal Pharaoh who was also set up as a god of Egypt, in order to free a nation enslaved and slowly killed.  This is what you call Captial E Evil?  And you somehow hold up Nicodemus' goals, as expressed in Death Masks, as not Capital E Evil?

Rememebr, history is written by the victor, and if there is anything the church is good at its propaganda. Maybe Lucifer was a proud rebel spitting in the face of a loving father, or maybe he was a freedom fighter trying to save his brethren from tyranny and enslavement and was ready to fight for what he believed to be the right thing, damn the costs.

I mean, sure, you can argue whatever you want if you choose to say "Well, what if this thing was evil all along and the good guys are just lying about it?"  But in judging Uriel, the Knights, and the Church as portrayed in the Dresden Files thus far, and judging by their actions and the results of them, I think that it would be a pretty big conspiracy theory if the end result of the book series was "Hey, look, the monsters were good all along and it was the good guys who are evil!"

[Arjan]

Punishing the father by killing his son is morally wrong whatever the father did but I do not think the Uriel who killed the firstborn is the same as the Uriel who walks around now just like the Odin who demanded human sacrifices is not the same one as he who talked with Harry.

They change because the stories about them change.

Besides we were talking about the morality of Nicodemus which is an easier problem.

[Anubissama]

So, these are Mab's 'evil' qualities?  Her epic level of torture for a traitor who nearly destroyed the balance of the world forever (and arguably could have killed it), murder, and her drafting of young fae to grow up to be soldiers?  I mean, she's not a saint or anything - but the Denarians, less evil than Mab?

That's my whole point, they are at worst equal evils, but everyone says the Mab is the lesser/predictable evil. And from a power standpoint, it makes much more sense to pick up a coin then taking up the Mantle, which I explained earlier as well.

Do you remember what Nicodemus' plans were in Death Masks?  To take an absolutely horrific plague that killed everyone that caught it in horrible, twisted, torturous ways, and to go to O'Hare Airport and spread it across the nation, and to the rest of the world.  To basically have a worldwide pandemic, killing billions in excruciatingly painful, torturous ways, to kickstart the apocalypse.  And that was just one of their many twisted plans that they've done through the millenia.

You could certainly argue that his plans in Small Favor weren't so horrible, but that's only because Nicodemus doesn't go out and state what he wants to do with Ivy.  It's clear what he can do with Ivy; like start a nuclear holocaust.  Or bring some Old Ones back into existence.  Granted, the second one isn't probably likely, but the first one is directly in line with his original goals.

That's the problem with not going his real end goal. Yes, a couple of millions of people dead is bad (since billions is an exaggeration, the plague was a conjured bacterium so it needed constant energy flow to keep existing, and the fake shroud wouldn't have had enough juice to sustain it beyond 1-3 sun rises). But do you think there will be no casualty during the BAT?

Who knows once the book series is complete if Nic's alternative plan of "kill a couple million" will look like a rather nice alternative.

Well, yes, the Aquarium scene does pretty much state that he's aware of Nemesis and that he works against it.  But that's far from saying that Nicodemus' ultimate goal is to stop the Outsiders.  He never goes so far.  All he really demonstrates is that he recognizes them as another power, similar to the Red Court at the time, which he is shocked and infuriated to learn has infiltrated his ranks.

The scene does more than establishing that he knows about them. He is in strict opposition to them and is against all reality threatening plots. In the great scheme of things, he is as much a force for good as is Mab.

Did you just hold up Mab's contracted drafting of fae children into her army as an evil event, but then hold up an act which emancipated an entire nation of slaves as a Captial E Evil?

No. I am saying that, again, that Mab and Nic are at worst equal in their evilness. And that the murderers *unnecessary* acts of violence that TWG does, strips him and his side of any moral superiority. So saying that Denarians are evil just because they oppose TWG isn't a real argument. You have to show me that they have truly evil intentions. Because so far they have been doing stuff that Mab and TWG have been doing too, and probably for the same reason, fighting Outsiders.

And not to go all theologian on you but:

And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

So yee WG is a bit of prick here, not only killing babies but also mind controlling the pharaoh in to not agreeing so that he can torture him some more. Not to mention the fact that as an omnipotent being he could just teleport "his people" out of Egypt no killing necessary but that wouldn't apparently be fun enough for him. Or the fact as you mentioned yourself waiting for generations of their suffering before acting. Got to soften them up so they will worship you more once you rescue them, hmm?

In the end, the situation is as following ALL 3 sides Denari, Mab, TWG have been doing disgusting and vile things for centuries if not millenia. Presumably all to either fight the Outsiders or to strengthen and widen their own power. But yet for some reason, Nic and the Denari are seen as some unredeemable E Evil, while Mab is a strict aunt and TWG is a paragon of good. With nothing to really distinguish them from each other if you take away the 2000 years of PR campaign, the Church has been running.

[DonBugen]

And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

So yee WG is a bit of prick here, not only killing babies but also mind controlling the pharaoh in to not agreeing so that he can torture him some more.

I just want to say, this is one area in which the Dresden Files' White God doesn't match up with our world's Christian God. I have a feeling that this section of the Dresden Bible might be different, sort of like how Thomas' "Faith, Hope and Love" quotation was so obviously different (beyond a reasonable allowance for paraphrase). TWG and his followers have outright stated time and time again, and demonstrated time and time again, that their greatest priority is the preservation of freedom of choice.

I'm not arguing Christian morality or theology, I'm using the Bible in the same way that Harry mentioned the story of Persephone to Hades. Besides, that bit about TWG was just a minor point.

At this point, we know the worst that Mab has done, and we know the reasons why. However, as for Nicodemus we know the worst that he's done - which is far worse then Mab - and you only have some guesses as to the reasons why. The only way in which Nicodemus' actions are not seen as an atrocity would be if he is trying to do some amazing fantastic wonderful thing that saves the entire world. And that is just so much hypothesis.

Besides, I think that an intellectual evil and temptation is far more difficult to contract than an emotional one. If a person is being emotionally tempted, they can usually reason and logic their way out of it. But if I'm being tempted using intelligence, logic, reasoning, by a being a million times more intelligent than I am, how would a person counteract that?

Maybe, possibly, it might be easier to walk away from a coin. But I think that the collateral damage would be far greater.

[wardenferry419]

Mab willing tortured a sadistic killer out of revenge for helping to nearly destroy the world.
Nicodemus willing tortured a child whose power could potential destroy the world.

Mab used Harry to kill her daughter to prevent her from destroying Demonreach.
Nicodemus personally killed his daughter in order to gain an object of power.

Mab made a deal with Harry for power that led to the elimination of a vampire infestation in order to gain an ally.
Nicodemus was going to use Harry's blood to cause a plague just to see what happens.

See the difference?

[Anubissama]

Mab willing tortured a sadistic killer out of revenge for helping to nearly destroy the world.
Nicodemus willing tortured a child whose power could potentially destroy the world.

Mab willingly tortured a mind control victim forced into heroin addiction, for nothing but vengeance. Purely punitive imprisonment is barbaric. Not to forget that the torture stretched for nearly 10 years, went beyond what's physiologically possible for a human body to sustain and literally turned him mad.

But you know we like Ivy and Shiro, but don't like the mentally unstable heroin addict. So it's a "that's Maaab" (sitcom laughter) for one and pitchforks and torches for Nic. Says more about us than the two.

Nicodemus personally killed his daughter in order to gain an object of power.

What does it matter who does the killing? The instigator and result are the same. Parent, dead child.

And I fully admit if it ever turns out that Nicodemus is doing this just to get personal power I'll admit he is E evil, but from all the hints we have so far it seems more than likely that Nicodemus has an end game goal that fights the Outsiders. Which we also use to justify all that Mab does, so again they are at worst equal.

Mab made a deal with Harry for power that led to the elimination of a vampire infestation in order to gain an ally.

She did that to gain a tool. Mab stressed herself that what the Red Court is doing means nothing to her, which actually puts Nic in a better light than her since he says that he doesn't like the Red Court, and implies that he would deal with them at some point too. So Mab is a-okay with letting the Reds run amok as long as they don't touch fairy, Nicodemus had them on his to-do list.

Anyway, you can't give Mab credit for the elimination of the Court. Especially since Dresden had 2 other means of finishing the job (Dark Hallow, and what we are discussing here). All credit of the Courts death is Harrys. Although I'm sure the Winter Court and White Council did everything they could to credit hog.

[Arjan]

Furthermore, you can't say "because they oppose the White God they are E evil'. Remember in the Dresdenverse the genocide of the Firstborn of Egypt is a real historical event. So the "good" guys are not above killing children and babies to make a political statement. As such the Angel side doesn't hold the morally superior position any longer, and just being against them doesn't make you automatically E evil.

But you can say because they oppose the knights of the cross....

Those things are not the same after all if you ask Lasciel she is still doing gods will...

[wardenferry419]

Mab is not a saint and Nico is not a saint. Both have lived a long time and done many bad things. But, I would sooner take Mab's word over Nico's. Nico starts problems and Mab resolves problems. Mab haas to be cold and calculating as her mantle demands. Nico can be charming when he wants or have temper-tantrums when he wants. Mab has responsibilities to manage. Nico has whatever whim or scheme he is currently cooking.Never hate one person for doing their job while admiring another person who is playing around.

[maGoh12]

So yee WG is a bit of prick here, not only killing babies but also mind controlling the pharaoh in to not agreeing so that he can torture him some more.
I just want to say, this is one area in which the Dresden Files' White God doesn't match up with our world's Christian God. I have a feeling that this section of the Dresden Bible might be different, sort of like how Thomas' "Faith, Hope and Love" quotation was so obviously different (beyond a reasonable allowance for paraphrase). TWG and his followers have outright stated time and time again, and demonstrated time and time again, that their greatest priority is the preservation of freedom of choice.

I'm not arguing Christian morality or theology, I'm using the Bible in the same way that Harry mentioned the story of Persephone to Hades. Besides, that bit about TWG was just a minor point.

At this point, we know the worst that Mab has done, and we know the reasons why. However, as for Nicodemus we know the worst that he's done - which is far worse then Mab - and you only have some guesses as to the reasons why. The only way in which Nicodemus' actions are not seen as an atrocity would be if he is trying to do some amazing fantastic wonderful thing that saves the entire world. And that is just so much hypothesis.

Besides, I think that an intellectual evil and temptation is far more difficult to contract than an emotional one. If a person is being emotionally tempted, they can usually reason and logic their way out of it. But if I'm being tempted using intelligence, logic, reasoning, by a being a million times more intelligent than I am, how would a person counteract that?

Maybe, possibly, it might be easier to walk away from a coin. But I think that the collateral damage would be far greater.

The party about God hardening Pharaoh's heart is straight out of the real Bible. Exodus 7:3-4 says He would do it. Exodus 9:12 says he did it. Strictly in the context of the Dresdenverse, and not speaking about Christian theology in the real world at all, it is kind of a dick move.