Denarian Dresden

[Con]

Okay so we've got an expanded answer on what would've happened if Dresden had taken up Lasciels coin in Changes, instead of Mab or Kemmler's Darkhallow. I personally think he should have gone with Lasciel as a better choice than Mab.

First there's this WOJ from a Reddit AMA last year.

Scanning back on it, if the Denarians had been involved, Harry would probably have had to lean more toward Lasciel as his get-out-of-paralysis-free card, and Nicodemus as his new best frenemy rather than Mab, in order to make the whole thing work out. He would have instantly come into conflict with Sanya, as well, over the possession of the Swords, and maybe with Murphy as well. Molly would have had to make a really horrible choice at that point, and probably would have walked out of it even more guilty and more ready to destroy herself after Harry's shooting. She probably would have wound up a Denarian herself.

Wow, that's a dark story. Who would come up with something like that? What's wrong with you?

Now here's me transcribing what Jim has said recently in the Dragon Con vide with thanks to Priscille for recording it. Looking forward to the fan video of Dresden vs Vampires!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQDTvMv1otI

He chose Mab as the most predictable evil not the least evil but the most reliable one

"Had he gone with Lasciel essentially she would have been his black magic tutor, Bob would've had a huge crush she would've been around him all the time it would've been her keeping him alive in the next book, although it would've been a slightly different book and then he would've been dealing with Nicodemus as a frenemies, on a consistancy basis he still had to deal with them as frenemies in Skin Game anyway so.

It would've been much different he would've had much different temptations Lasciel would've been trying to isolate him from his friends, actively isolating him unlike Mab whose waiting on entropy doing the job for her. It would've been a much harsher story but a lot more sex too.. sales would've been fine.

My reasoning for wanting Lasciel is because I enjoyed her character through the books she appeared with in fact they were my favourite things about the books she appeared in. Her conversations with Harry were great and inticing, and she really was useful as resevoir of information and recording.

I also find Lasciel to be a much more interesting character and characterisation than Mab.

Also I feel like Jim knows more about Angelic Folklore than Faery Folklore, and I'm very much interested on his characterisations of Angelic types, despite being an Atheist myself. Getting an Atheist interested in books revolving around God even fictional portrayals of them isn't easy.

I also would've loved to find more about the various Denarians both as a whole and as individuals and finally learn a few more names to add to the compendium.

Finally we have these series of hints in which Lash may make a comback. She definitely would've featured more prominently in a series featuring Lasciel.

What roll will Lasciel play in future books?
That's going to be another one of those where I go "Hahaha, I know and you don't" because, you know, it's the whole, I want to provide for my family thing.  Were're not done with Lasciel.  We might not even be totally done with Lash, but we will have to see how that goes. 
2009 Chicago signing:
Q:  Will we see Lash or Lasciel again?
A:  Lasciel’s story is not over.  And keep in mind what’s said about ‘a woman scorned.’  Also keep in mind that Lasciel is NOT Lash; Lasciel did not reabsorb the entity that Harry actually changed. (Yes, he use those words “that Harry actually changed.”)
2009 Independence signing
Q:  Was the voice in Harry’s head at the end of White Night (when he was playing guitar) a sign that Lash is still there?
A:  Not really.  But Lash’s story isn’t done.
2008 Comic-Con Q&A: @ about 6:11
Q:  Does Lasciel's shadow get to heaven because she redeemed herself?
A:  The answer to that is so much more complicated than is easy to give, especially without giving out extra story and ruining the fun.  No.  Lasciel's spirit didn't go to heaven.  And now, (sing song) I'm not gona tell you. *mutters about heroin for writers*  But it will come out, don't worry the story will be there.

So yes personally I'd have been interested to see how things would've turned out had Harry gone down this route.

[RobReece]

I'll begin with one caveat... you stated that you enjoyed Harry's interactions with Lasciel in the books, those were not Lasciel, those were her shadow that became Lash.  He's had one interaction with Lasciel, and that was in the Vault in SG.  At least to me, she came across a LOT more arrogant than her shadow ever did. 

secondly, I don't think we'll see Lash again, her story might go on, through her daughter, but I think that she's gone for good.

[Mira]

I don't think it would have turned out well at all if Harry had gone with the coin...We need look no further than what happened with Hannah Asher... As it was if you will remember Harry began to have anger management problems under the influence of the shadow of Lasciel, and he wasn't aware of how far it had gotten until Murphy sat down and had a talk with him.  Yes, Harry got a grip, he also had the advantage of having inadvertently soul gazing a Denarian and found out what a horror it was, it was one factor in his resistance to the influence... But no, Harry as a Denarian wouldn't be a good thing..

[wardenferry419]

I'll begin with one caveat... you stated that you enjoyed Harry's interactions with Lasciel in the books, those were not Lasciel, those were her shadow that became Lash.  He's had one interaction with Lasciel, and that was in the Vault in SG.  At least to me, she came across a LOT more arrogant than her shadow ever did. 

secondly, I don't think we'll see Lash again, her story might go on, through her daughter, but I think that she's gone for good.

I agree. Lash is not Lasciel. Lash is the coy and inticing seductress to Lasciel's brutal and dominating mistress.

[DonBugen]

But Lasciel was always the temptress - that's what (Bob?) said from the beginning.  And while Lash was an impression made on a mutable material and able to change, I would imagine that when we saw her in the beginning she was still mostly herself.

The difference between how we see her for the first time in Dead Beat versus Skin Game, I imagine, probably has more to do with the difference between the face she gives to the person she's seducing, compared to her being completely unmasked and filled with rage.

Mab is a great frenemy - it's pretty darn obvious when she's doing something perfectly awful, and Harry's caveman instincts are pretty easy to tell from his normal train of thought.  With Lasciel in his head, the line would be grayed far more, and I think that Harry wouldn't be quite where he's at right now.

Ultimately, though, I don't think that I'd be happy with a Denarian Harry.  This is going to be really controversial, but I felt like the Lash storyline ended really prematurely.  I never felt like Lash herself was changing, and I felt like Harry kept creeping closer and closer to taking the coin.  I mean, he has Lash possess his freaking tongue to talk several dead languages in front of allies.  How more comfortable can you get?  But then, Lash is suddenly all, "No one's ever lasted this long, clearly I'll never seduce you into taking the coin!" and Harry's all "Yeah, but you could go have a life of your own, why not?"  Completely out of nowhere right before the final act of White Night.

The scene with Lash talking about the church and reminiscing about Heaven was beautiful, though.

[Mira]

The scene with Lash talking about the church and reminiscing about Heaven was beautiful, though.

That is one of my favorite passages in the whole series..

[Arjan]

Harry wanted to save his daughter. Mab is just more reliable than Lasciel.

And with Mab he still had access to three swords, a godmother and so on. Those are better than a bunch of very unreliable denarians.

[Con]

I just miss Lash man, and yes, I agree that Lash and Lasciel are two different beings and entities, but I still think both would've appeared to Harry in a battle for his Soul if Harry had gone Denarian.

Plus I dislike Mab as a character. Now if Leansidhe were to become Queen or be the primary go between Harry and the Queen that would've taken my interest which would make more sense come to think about it. Mab spends far too much time with just Harry and on the mortal realm when she's got a Faerie Queendom, A Rival Summer, The Outer Gates, The Various factions of the Accords and Mortal Matters to attend to.

I think given Lloyd Slate was primarily Maeve's errand boy it would make more sense if Lea were the primary go between. Given that the Winter Lady and Leanansidhe have both been said to be the second most powerful members of Mab's court.

But I digress. I miss Lash and would've looked forward to discovering the differences between her and Lasciel. Plus Harry neeeds to get laid dude... like a lot... Anita Blake level. I find Murphy cute but not as sexy as seductress Lasciel.

I would argue Harry becoming a Denarian would be more reason for the Sword to get involved not less.

[wardenferry419]

Harry doesn't have sex much for being the big hero in his own series. The only person that gets laid less often than him is me. Other series have heroes getting it on at least once a book. Harry gets a little about once every 5 books.

[Kindler]

It's fun to think about how him taking the coin would've played out. Certainly Harry's view of the Outsider situation would be drastically different. And, if you believe that Nic is working to protect our universe from the Outsiders in the long-term (because nobody gets to break his toys but him), Harry's role in supporting that effort would be crazy fun.

I sort of see Nicodemus as our reality's answer to Nemesis, a kind of counterspy working to plant false leads and sabotage their efforts. The key difference is that while Nemesis has access to allies via some kind of hivemind-type thing, Nic is no longer trusted by anyone.

In the end, though, I think Mab is just more Harry's style, and a far, far safer bet than Lasciel. The Coin would have completely changed him, and I believe that Lasciel is perfectly capable of dominating Harry rather than working alongside him, as she claims.

There is one big advantage to the Coin, though: Harry could have set it aside afterward. Michael would have saved him, I'm certain of it. It's going to be much harder to get out of being the Winter Knight, at least until next Halloween.

[Snark Knight]

There is one big advantage to the Coin, though: Harry could have set it aside afterward. Michael would have saved him, I'm certain of it. It's going to be much harder to get out of being the Winter Knight, at least until next Halloween.

Except if Michael was right that setting down the coin means forfeiting his magic too, the whole 'wizard PI' concept for the series is going to be down one wizard.

[RobReece]

Except if Michael was right that setting down the coin means forfeiting his magic too, the whole 'wizard PI' concept for the series is going to be down one wizard.

I think you're off a bit here.  My understanding of what Michael said was that the only way to walk away from the shadow of Lasciel was to give up his magic, if Harry had accepted the coin and then given it up to the church, then Lasciel would have left and no shadow would have been left behind.  I don't think there would have been any issue with his magic at that point.

[Anubissama]

Honestly, the whole argument that Mab is the lesser evil doesn't really make sense to me. Let's compare the two:

Winter Knight
- you only get power, some supernatural strength, and painkiller. All tied to your position of Knight
- you have a constant 24/7 temptation of the instinct that the Mantle awakes in you
- there is literally only one person in the history of mankind that managed to get out of this position alive

Knight of the Blackened Denari
- you get a power boost via Hellfire (and maybe in Dresdens case at this point he could have both Hell and Soulfire) which is directly tied to your position and a Coin holder, you are functional immortal, and you get superb healing no faking via painkillers, but most importantly you get knowledge and magical experience beyond the reach of ANY creature on the planet. This is where the real power boost of the Denari lie, and if you ever leave you get to keep that knowledge.
- the only temptation is intellectual, yes Lash might converse with your subconscious but at the end of the day, those conversations are also based on logic and reason. There is a whole world of difference between being tempted on an instinctual emotional level, and being tempted on a logical Socratic level. IMHO it is much easier to withstand the later than a constant nagging from your urges.
- there is literally a world spanning organisation dedicated to helping you get rid of the coin (and as mentioned if you leave you keep most of the power boost anyway) so your odds of getting out alive are astronomically higher

If you are looking for the best power boost, with the highest chance of retaining yourself, and best odds of surviving and leaving it behind, Denari win out against Mab.

[Snark Knight]

I think you're off a bit here.  My understanding of what Michael said was that the only way to walk away from the shadow of Lasciel was to give up his magic, if Harry had accepted the coin and then given it up to the church, then Lasciel would have left and no shadow would have been left behind.  I don't think there would have been any issue with his magic at that point.

So why didn't he just take it up, reabsorb Lash into Lasciel, and choose to get rid of it immediately? If there were no consequences to fully accepting the coin even briefly, that could have solved his shadow problem at any time.

[Arjan]

The goal was not power, power was a means. The goal was getting his daughter free and that means a bargain. It is far better to bargain with Mab who keeps her word than with Nicodemus. We know the worth of his word.

We see in Changes that he got more than just the winter knights power. What he did that day was not something he showed in later books. Mab gave him enough power to succeed because she had promised so.

Another sign is more indirect. Uriel is not against working with Mab, He does so himself sometimes. This might be because Mab serves a higher purpose, I do not think Nicodemus is secretly fighting against the outsiders or something like that.