Black Council named in Fist full of warlocks? *Spoilers*

[groinkick]

Quote from the story:

"The Venatori Umbrorum were a secret society of their own, steeped in the occult, quietly working against the supernatural forces that threatened humanity.  "

"the Thule Society was more or less a long-time foe, using their resources to attempt to use supernatural powers to their own benefit"

Kemmler, and Grevane were members of this Thule Society.  Luccio knew who they were as well, which makes me wonder something.  As commander of the Wardens it's almost certain that Eb knows about them too, and yet he lets Harry call them the Black Council and didn't share with him who the Thule Society is...  I guess it's possible he believed them destroyed, but seems unlikely.  He's too smart to believe they are completely gone, so why not tell Harry?  Perhaps he hasn't connected that the Thule Society is the Black Council?  Again, seems unlikely he wouldn't make the connection.

Anyways what do you think?  Maybe the Black Council is not the Thule Society but it seems likely to me.


Don't know if this is of importance because of the timeline issues:

The Thule Society (/ˈtuːlə/; German: Thule-Gesellschaft), originally the Studiengruppe für germanisches Altertum ("Study Group for Germanic Antiquity"), was a German occultist and völkisch group in Munich right after World War I, named after a mythical northern country from Greek legend.

They are tied to Nazi's and Kemmler was supposed to be involved with the both world wars.

[LordDresden2]

Quote from the story:

"The Venatori Umbrorum were a secret society of their own, steeped in the occult, quietly working against the supernatural forces that threatened humanity.  "

"the Thule Society was more or less a long-time foe, using their resources to attempt to use supernatural powers to their own benefit"

Kemmler, and Grevane were members of this Thule Society.  Luccio knew who they were as well, which makes me wonder something.  As commander of the Wardens it's almost certain that Eb knows about them too, and yet he lets Harry call them the Black Council and didn't share with him who the Thule Society is...  I guess it's possible he believed them destroyed, but seems unlikely.  He's too smart to believe they are completely gone, so why not tell Harry?  Perhaps he hasn't connected that the Thule Society is the Black Council?  Again, seems unlikely he wouldn't make the connection.

Anyways what do you think?  Maybe the Black Council is not the Thule Society but it seems likely to me.


Don't know if this is of importance because of the timeline issues:

The Thule Society (/ˈtuːlə/; German: Thule-Gesellschaft), originally the Studiengruppe für germanisches Altertum ("Study Group for Germanic Antiquity"), was a German occultist and völkisch group in Munich right after World War I, named after a mythical northern country from Greek legend.

They are tied to Nazi's and Kemmler was supposed to be involved with the both world wars.

It's not likely that the Thule Society is the Black Council per se.  There may be extensive overlap in terms of membership, but the Thule Society isn't likely to be any great secret to the Council.  The Thule Society were indeed tied up in the foundation of the Nazi movement, too.  They aren't a secret as such, they're even publically known to exist, or have existed.

We don't even know what the Black Council is.  It's just a name Harry and Eb apply to their mysterious enemies, they could as easily have named them the Brotherhood of the Wombat, either name would be as good as the other for an unknown group.  (Though the phrase 'black council' is so natural that it's obvious other people use it, Morgan had heard it used as he revealed in Turn Coat, so has the Merlin.)

There's a body called the Circle, that's their own name for themselves, but all we know about them is that they exist, and that information comes through Madrigal Raith and his teammates.  Harry tends to assume that 'the Circle' is what he and Eb call the Black Council, but he can't be sure.

[Con]

I think the Thule Society is a more distinct and specific society of German sorcerers headed up by Kemmler, who are also responsible for both World Wars.

The Black Council otherwise known as the Circle is a group of several factions or several individuals within those factions who want power and aren't afraid of breaking the Laws of Magic to do so particularly regarding the laws of Killing, Enthralling and most importantly Outsiders.

I don't think the Thule Society is the Black Council but I do believe they were members of it.

[jonas]

*face palm* what was it, ghost busters meets Constantine or...? Ya know who the Thule society was? you remember what they DID? gah, i'm off to go watch ghostbusters.
Harry is the keymaster!!!! lol

[groinkick]

I think the Thule Society is a more distinct and specific society of German sorcerers headed up by Kemmler,

One of them was British, I believe.

Venatori Umbrorum are fighting the Oblivion war aren't they?  Fighting the Old Gods?  If the Thule Society is in deed the opposite, wouldn't it stand to reason that they are the ones working for them?  Just seems weird to think that the Thule Society is on the opposite side of the Venatori, but are no longer relevant.  The name drop by Jim seems important.  If it doesn't move the story forward why even mention them?

[jonas]

One of them was British, I believe.

Venatori Umbrorum are fighting the Oblivion war aren't they?  Fighting the Old Gods?  If the Thule Society is in deed the opposite, wouldn't it stand to reason that they are the ones working for them?  Just seems weird to think that the Thule Society is on the opposite side of the Venatori, but are no longer relevant.  The name drop by Jim seems important.  If it doesn't move the story forward why even mention them?

Thematic elements, connections to story and character archetypes and actions are likely if not plausible. Have to wait til briefcase to read it myself I think ;'(

[KurtinStGeorge]

One of them was British, I believe.

Venatori Umbrorum are fighting the Oblivion war aren't they?  Fighting the Old Gods?  If the Thule Society is in deed the opposite, wouldn't it stand to reason that they are the ones working for them?  Just seems weird to think that the Thule Society is on the opposite side of the Venatori, but are no longer relevant.  The name drop by Jim seems important.  If it doesn't move the story forward why even mention them?

Not exactly.  There is a smaller more covert organization within the Venatori Umbrorum that is fighting the Oblivion War.  Most members within the larger organization don't even know it exists, let alone its true purpose.  Thomas and Lara Raith are members of that smaller group, though I can't remember it's name.  (I don't have my copy of Side Jobs with me.)  Anyway, that is why the average member of the Venatori Umbrorum wouldn't see the Thule Society as its exact opposite.   

[groinkick]

Not exactly.  There is a smaller more covert organization within the Venatori Umbrorum that is fighting the Oblivion War.  Most members within the larger organization don't even know it exists, let alone its true purpose.  Thomas and Lara Raith are members of that smaller group, though I can't remember it's name.  (I don't have my copy of Side Jobs with me.)  Anyway, that is why the average member of the Venatori Umbrorum wouldn't see the Thule Society as its exact opposite.

Perhaps it's like that with the Thule Society..  Most are not that big of a deal but there is a smaller inner circle that are even more dangerous.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Perhaps it's like that with the Thule Society..  Most are not that big of a deal but there is a smaller inner circle that are even more dangerous.

Even though we don't know very little about the Thule society that makes sense.  Another possibility is the Thule society is a precursor to the Black Council.  Perhaps the goals of both groups aren't an exact match, but there is a general overlap in attitudes and beliefs so the creation of the Black Council/Circle is a natural outgrowth from the Thule society. 

[jamescagney22]

Come to think of it is their any evidence that aside from Cowl and Kumori that the Black Council is a group and not Nemesis just infecting individuals via Cowl and associates?

[wardenferry419]

Maybe the Circle predates the Thule Society.  Lord Raith seems to be associated with the Circle. Mavra seems to be associated with the Circle. The RCV duchess seems to be associated with the Circle.  Some of these players are thousands of years old. Perhaps Kemmler was associated as well and utilized the resources of the Circle to founds the Thule Society.

[jonas]

Maybe the Circle predates the Thule Society.  Lord Raith seems to be associated with the Circle. Mavra seems to be associated with the Circle. The RCV duchess seems to be associated with the Circle.  Some of these players are thousands of years old. Perhaps Kemmler was associated as well and utilized the resources of the Circle to founds the Thule Society.

Heh, those arrogant Fu*&s. I just now got it, I just now got the whole damned thing. Kept coming back to what circle? Which circle? coming up with fantastical possibilities each more unlikely then the last lol. It's very easily figured out when you think about their main goals and compare thematics with what's there. (Occam razor time!)
The circle is all about have power will use. About challenging the status quo and seizing that power for themselves. The actual name is a play on the pentacle, the circle in it representing being bound under human will(probably better translated as mortal will, the ability to choose) So the circle by calling themselves that are declaring their intention to grasp and hold power under their own wills. Makes some sense, yes?

[jyn8462]

The circle is all about have power will use. About challenging the status quo and seizing that power for themselves. The actual name is a play on the pentacle, the circle in it representing being bound under human will(probably better translated as mortal will, the ability to choose) So the circle by calling themselves that are declaring their intention to grasp and hold power under their own wills. Makes some sense, yes?

He knows the secret, he must be purged!

[Snark Knight]

Not exactly.  There is a smaller more covert organization within the Venatori Umbrorum that is fighting the Oblivion War.  Most members within the larger organization don't even know it exists, let alone its true purpose.  Thomas and Lara Raith are members of that smaller group, though I can't remember it's name.

They called themselves Venators. Their pun was that the Venatori Umbrorum think their name means something like Shadow Hunters, it's actually Shadows of the Hunters - the rest of them are basically just elaborate camoflage for the inhuman Venators to do the real work.

As for the Thule, they might have some overlap with the Circle, but it seemed that the Thule membership were human, while many of the known Circle members were vampires. If anything, it seems more likely that the Thule were created by the Circle to act as proxies / generally increase chaos.

I'm not sure whether Kemmler would have been down with the whole pro-Outsider agenda, either. He didn't really reveal enough in the short story to judge whether his crazy ran in the direction of wanting to let the Outsiders in in the hopes of being rewarded for it. But if the Darkhallow was the culmination of his life's work, it would seem becoming a lower-level god is somewhat devalued at an objective if you're also going to be letting a whole pantheon of much more powerful dark gods back onto the scene.

[toodeep]

Good catch.  The Thule society also shows up in other literature - namely the Hellboy comic series.  In it I think they are seriously involved in the "bringing the ancient horrors back to reality" kind of thing.  It might very well have been a group of sorcerers who, looking for power, originally started with necromancy, but eventually segued into outsiders...