Which absent villian will appear in Peace Talks?

[kazimmoinuddin]

I remember a story with the fae, a human travelled to their lands and never aged there, but when he returned to the mortal realm, he super aged. So the Eebs were restored to humanity, but somehow simply did not age in the lands of faerie. They would need some kind of patron to alter them to allow them to survive in the mortal realm once more.

[forumghost]

I'm ambivalent on the subject of the Ebs.  If they do still exist, I hope there is a good (Doyalistic) reason for it.

Two good reasons they left, assuming they survived the curse.
1) The Erlking didn't want to exterminate a hunter species, no matter how worthless the Eebs might have been.
2) A Nemesis agent in the Erlking's Court secretly expedited their release as potential allies to the cause.

Why would Nemesis waste it's time and effort (not to mention the identity of its agents) to spring a couple of loser Rampires?

What made the Red Court a threat was their numbers, influence, and organization. None of which the Eebs have.

[Griffyn612]

Why would Nemesis waste it's time and effort (not to mention the identity of its agents) to spring a couple of loser Rampires?

What made the Red Court a threat was their numbers, influence, and organization. None of which the Eebs have.

Theoretically, all it would take is the primary agent using an ignorant resource to free them, and then have another ignorant resource eliminate the "traitor" before questioning. 

As to why make the effort, the Ramps were a formidable asset that can be quickly rebuilt.  If the Eebs were freed (one way or another) right after the curse, then by the time of Peace Talks, they will have had a couple years to add to their numbers.

With the chaos of the Fomor/Council war, the Eebs could have taken plenty of people to turn.  They might have been able to hold on to some of the old resources of the Court, in remote areas that don't get as much attention.

And if they joined forces with the Fomor, as other disenfranchised groups have, then they would have access to some of the Court's old resources that the Fomor seized, and would have the ability to work in the shadows of their organization to rebuild.

By the time the Peace Talks begin, they could have hundreds, even thousands, of Ramps ready to raid the talks along with the Fomor to surprise the attendees and enact revenge for their demise.  Ramps made from werewolves and minor talents and everyone else the Fomor have been kidnapping. 

[Mr. Death]

That's presuming they could make new vampires.

Bianca couldn't until she was promoted to the higher ranks of nobility. There's nobody around to promote the Eebs, so if they weren't already...

[Griffyn612]

That's presuming they could make new vampires.

Bianca couldn't until she was promoted to the higher ranks of nobility. There's nobody around to promote the Eebs, so if they weren't already...

We don't know the methodology of their transformation.  It might be that she physically could, but to do so without permission is a death sentence.

Or it could be that the power of the Court was spread, like Vadderung said, and the most senior could do it.  Being the only survivors, the Eebs and their squad would be the most senior.

Or, they might not be able to, in which case there wouldn't be much point in bringing them back.  That's up to JB.

[forumghost]

If they come back, what was the point in Changes in the first place?

'lol Harry you sold your soul, traumatised several people you care about, killed the mother of your child and screwed over most of the world by shattering the power balance for nothing because the Red Court is back at full power, trolololol'

Even Jim doesn't hate Harry that much.

[Griffyn612]

If they come back, what was the point in Changes in the first place?

'lol Harry you sold your soul, traumatised several people you care about, killed the mother of your child and screwed over most of the world by shattering the power balance for nothing because the Red Court is back at full power, trolololol'

Even Jim doesn't hate Harry that much.

I don't think the Ramps, if they do survive the Eebs or anyone else, will ever be what they were.  None of the other factions will let that happen.  Harry destroyed one of the most powerful courts in the supernatural community.

That's a big deal, even if he didn't exterminate them completely.

As for why should JB bring them back... closure for Harry?  It was the Eebs that destroyed Harry's life and forced his hand into accepting Mab's offer.  He hated the Ramps, and he has even more reason to hate the Eebs. 

Having them show up in Peace Talks in a fashion that doesn't allow Harry (and his impulsive mantle) to enact immediate revenge is a good character plot.

Not to mention the old plot theory that a death causes chaos at the Peace Talks, and Harry having to investigate while he himself is a suspect because one of the Eebs was killed would be an excellent "case" for him to work.

[Mr. Death]

He got closure with them when he beat their champions in a duel, saw them being carted off for torture at the hands of goblins, and then wiped out everyone they had ever known.

They were a couple also-ran mooks, like the tennis twins in Grave Peril; they were a speedbump in a larger conflict and he drove over them already. Let them stay buried, I say.

Per the RPG, from Bob:

Bianca’s promotion
to the nobility was
both a legal one
and a metaphysical
one—that’s why
Duke Ortega was
there: to let her
taste of his blood,
giving her the
power and the
authority to make
new spawn.

[Griffyn612]

He got closure with them when he beat their champions in a duel, saw them being carted off for torture at the hands of goblins, and then wiped out everyone they had ever known.

They were a couple also-ran mooks, like the tennis twins in Grave Peril; they were a speedbump in a larger conflict and he drove over them already. Let them stay buried, I say.

You're comparing the Eebs to the Hamilton twins?   

The Eebs destroyed Harry's office, and all his belongings there.  They destroyed the Blue Beetle.  They destroyed his apartment, and all of his belongings.  They broke his back, forcing him to take up Mab's offer.  They put him on the FBI's radar.  They used a pawn to cost Murphy her job, thus ruining the life of the woman he loves. It wouldn't surprise me if they were involved in Maggie's capture, which would be a great reveal in a future appearance to stoke Harry's rage.

In comparison, the Hamiltons did what?

To date, the Eebs and Mavra are the only enemies to to successfully attack Harry directly. 

Per the RPG, from Bob:

That fits with what Vadderung said about the power of the Ramps being diluted.  But with all the others dead, the power of the blood went... where?  Nowhere?  Or to the last of the bloodline?  "Metaphysical" is not the same as physical, so the blood itself might not be required to "ascend" to that level within the Court.

[Mr. Death]

I'm not talking about their accomplishments, I'm talking about their overall role in the story.

The Hamiltons weren't the important badguys, Bianca was.

The Eebs weren't the important badguys, Arianna was.

Did they get more done then the Hamiltons? Sure. But Harry has dealt with them, directly and on the page, and their narrative role was finished. At this point Harry probably doesn't even remember them specifically.

Who knows where the power of the blood went, if it went anywhere. It could've dissipated into the ether for all anyone knows. But ask yourself this -- if being in the Nevernever was enough to keep the curse targeting them specifically from hitting, then wouldn't it also prevent the power from finding them?

[Griffyn612]

I'm not talking about their accomplishments, I'm talking about their overall role in the story.

The Hamiltons weren't the important badguys, Bianca was.

The Eebs weren't the important badguys, Arianna was.

Did they get more done then the Hamiltons? Sure. But Harry has dealt with them, directly and on the page, and their narrative role was finished. At this point Harry probably doesn't even remember them specifically.

Who knows where the power of the blood went, if it went anywhere. It could've dissipated into the ether for all anyone knows. But ask yourself this -- if being in the Nevernever was enough to keep the curse targeting them specifically from hitting, then wouldn't it also prevent the power from finding them?

By that logic, the Eebs are the plot equivalent of the Loup Garou, the Nightmare, Corpsetaker (pt. 1), the Naagloshi, and Before.  One has already made a second appearance, and the other two are highly likely to return.  How is the Eebs return less deserving?

As for the power reaching them when the curse couldn't, I would imagine it'd depend on the source of the power.  I could see where it might not reach them until after their release. 

It's been shown that power (magic) exists even when the person trying to tap it (Harry) can't due to being cut off from it via barriers (Hellfire circle), but access was restored once beyond the barrier. 

The Ramp bloodline power could just exist in the pool of magical power, and would fade or transform given enough time.  But if conduits were to appear... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not that I'm saying the Eebs will get the Court's combined power.  That's probably gone.  But the aspect to create more of them might not be diluted anymore.

[kazimmoinuddin]

They might not be able to restore the rcv, but I could see an effort to some how reclaim their lost power. As former rcv, the Eebs could have a claim to it. The same could be said for Maggie, she was the child of a Demi rcv. How many people have such a blood connection.

I kinda wondered if the warden or winter knight some how claimed that power, in the act of killing the rcv. The winter knight could be seen as a representative of the winter court.

[DonBugen]

Probably not, unless somehow Dresden had done it upon Mab's stone alter.  That would be interesting.

[Griffyn612]

I don't think that would go well.  I'm a strong believer in "you are what you eat" in the Dresdenverse.  And I believe the Sidhe are so restricted because of how they got their power (they got the weaknesses and restrictions of what they absorbed along with the benefits)

Eating the Ramps power would be... potentially bad.

[Mr. Death]

By that logic, the Eebs are the plot equivalent of the Loup Garou, the Nightmare, Corpsetaker (pt. 1), the Naagloshi, and Before.  One has already made a second appearance, and the other two are highly likely to return.  How is the Eebs return less deserving?

Nah, I'd rank them lower than that. They were dealt with, Harry beat them... I think their role in the story is done. They were not, in themselves, powerful. They were working under orders and when push came to shove, they literally sent a random mook they grabbed out of their squad rather than face Harry directly.

As for the power reaching them when the curse couldn't, I would imagine it'd depend on the source of the power.  I could see where it might not reach them until after their release. 

It's been shown that power (magic) exists even when the person trying to tap it (Harry) can't due to being cut off from it via barriers (Hellfire circle), but access was restored once beyond the barrier.

The Ramp bloodline power could just exist in the pool of magical power, and would fade or transform given enough time.  But if conduits were to appear... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not that I'm saying the Eebs will get the Court's combined power.  That's probably gone.  But the aspect to create more of them might not be diluted anymore.

See, with all the focus on the blood, I think there's a necessarily, inextricably physical component to the Red Court's power. The power seems to be in the blood itself, rather than as energy.

The way I look at it, Odin is specific that their blood has been diluted. Bianca being elevated apparently involved drinking Ortega's blood. They constantly talk about blood as if it, in itself, is what's important.

So I think their power bled out when they did.