Entropy vs Entropomancy and other misc questions.

[jamescagney22]

Okay just about finishing up my re-read of the Dresden Files and just have a few quick questions/clarifications.
1. What is the difference between Carlos's entropy water magic and Entropomancy that the Fomor and other magic users use?
2. I was reading the Dresden Files RPG Our World, I play it with friends, and it mentioned Molly Carpenter in Small Favor was trying to learn another element evocation aside from Spirit and Wind. Aside from the spirit shield at the beginning I do not recall any other element she tries to use unless I overlooked it or it is in another book?
3. Lastly, do the winter or summer mantles give you the ability to do magic in general or only a certain kind of Fae magic? Molly and Harry can do things with magic that does not involve their mantles, and I was curious if Fix/Lloyd Slate or Maeve/Lily/Sarrisa could do magic as versatile as they could.   

[Quantus]

Okay just about finishing up my re-read of the Dresden Files and just have a few quick questions/clarifications.
1. What is the difference between Carlos's entropy water magic and Entropomancy that the Fomor and other magic users use?

Carlos's magic is more of a thermodynamic Entropy:

(click to show/hide)

Ramirez's spell was based on principles of entropy and water magic, and focused on disrupting, shattering, and dispersing any objects trying to pass through it, turning their own energy against them. Even magic must do business with physics, and Carlos couldn't simply make the energy the bullets carried go away. Instead, the spell reduced their force by shattering the bullets with their own momentum, breaking them into zillions of tiny pieces, spreading them out, so that their individual impact energy would be negligible.

Entropy Curses and the Fomor Entropy Magic are Bad Luck Spells, more along the lines of the Murphionic Hexes that inject additional chaos into a system until it breaks:

(click to show/hide)

The fomor practice entropy magic. They make the antitechnology effect Dresden puts off look like mild sunspot activity. Modern systems are going to experience problems near him.”

2. I was reading the Dresden Files RPG Our World, I play it with friends, and it mentioned Molly Carpenter in Small Favor was trying to learn another element evocation aside from Spirit and Wind. Aside from the spirit shield at the beginning I do not recall any other element she tries to use unless I overlooked it or it is in another book?

There was no mention of it during SmF that Im aware of, any more than she showed the Sight or strong Thaumaturgy, as Our World mentions.  By Changes she had all that "One Woman Rave" illusion magic, so Id suspect Fire as a component of Holomancy.  It makes more sense for her to try than Earth or Water, given Harry is the one teaching her.  For that matter, since Harry struggles with the weight of Earth Magic and Molly struggles with only Air, I wonder if she could use earth magic at all?

3. Lastly, do the winter or summer mantles give you the ability to do magic in general or only a certain kind of Fae magic? Molly and Harry can do things with magic that does not involve their mantles, and I was curious if Fix/Lloyd Slate or Maeve/Lily/Sarrisa could do magic as versatile as they could.

Best Explanation I can offer is that the Mantles offer you a Power Source.  Anyone (with said mantle) can channel that power directly, and it manifests as it naturally does: as Fire and/or Ice.  But those with their own skills with manipulate those energies (ie wizard talents) have more flexibility.  Im a nerd, so in this context I think of the Mantle as a big car Battery: hand anyone a Car battery and they can use it to Weld, which is undeniably cool and useful. But a person who brings their own electrical/electronic system to the table can do a hell of a lot more with the energy in that battery. 

And it's not just Mantles, the same is more or less true for lots of things.  The Vampires (whites at least) can use their Hunger to Juice magic if they have the skills. All Denarian hosts get some basic powers and shapeshifting and whatnot, but if they take the time to learn magic they get hellfire-enhanced spells and such. 

[Rasins]

Well, we know that both Maeve and Lily did learn magic, because they performed some on-screen.

[Quantus]

Well, we know that both Maeve and Lily did learn magic, because they performed some on-screen.

True, she walked circles out and such things that indicate some actual magical understanding.  But at the same time we saw her barely able to control the Fire within her, which seem more like the sort of innate Fire-based energy that we see Harry tap when he's juicing spells with Cold.  Note that Harry, a nominal expert, accidentally included Ice with his attack on Sharkface, purely by fueling it with "Winter Power".  This indicates to me that the Court Energy have those inate elemental Natures, disctinct from any magical education of it's user.  I also point out that Slate does not seem the sort to be able to learn normal mortal magic (being a psychotic addict and such), but he could throw Ice.  It's Sponsored Magic. 

[jonas]

Entropy Curses and the Fomor Entropy Magic are Bad Luck Spells, more along the lines of the Murphionic Hexes that inject additional chaos into a system until it breaks

Mmm, considering the Even Hand quote that follows more or less directly links bad luck and anti-tech effects I find it fascinating for my theory wizard aura's basically effect out bad luck within the bounds of freedom of will. Where as those spells I would say are not.

Note that Harry, a nominal expert, accidentally included Ice with his attack on Sharkface, purely by fueling it with "Winter Power"

small point of contention, I'm not sure if he was ever shown to be fueling his moves with winter power to cause this effect. Winter seems to just react in the face of it's enemy. The same thing happens when Harry tries to use fire on him, but i'm thinking it doesn't happen every time he lights up a candle. So the common denominator would be the presence of an outsider?

[Quantus]

Mmm, considering the Even Hand quote that follows more or less directly links bad luck and anti-tech effects I find it fascinating for my theory wizard aura's basically effect out bad luck within the bounds of freedom of will. Where as those spells I would say are not.

small point of contention, I'm not sure if he was ever shown to be fueling his moves with winter power to cause this effect. Winter seems to just react in the face of it's enemy. The same thing happens when Harry tries to use fire on him, but i'm thinking it doesn't happen every time he lights up a candle. So the common denominator would be the presence of an outsider?

We've seen harry funnel Winter Power into (intentional) Ice spells with and without enemies present, and get an effect that seemed well beyond him prior to having the mantle.  We've seen him throw Winter energy into a mixed spell and get accidental Ice covering the room.  We've seen him tap Winter too deeply and gain the ability to create ice at will for weapons and armor.  All his descriptions of the experiences make it sound like tapping Winter is a conscious decision, connecting a spell or whatever to a separate power source.  I dont think it's spontaneously triggering in the presence of an enemy (since he was able to freeze the sunken warehouse) so much as he doesnt tap into winter casually. 

[jonas]

We've seen harry funnel Winter Power into (intentional) Ice spells with and without enemies present, and get an effect that seemed well beyond him prior to having the mantle.  We've seen him throw Winter energy into a mixed spell and get accidental Ice covering the room.  We've seen him tap Winter too deeply and gain the ability to create ice at will for weapons and armor.  All his descriptions of the experiences make it sound like tapping Winter is a conscious decision, connecting a spell or whatever to a separate power source.  I dont think it's spontaneously triggering in the presence of an enemy (since he was able to freeze the sunken warehouse) so much as he doesnt tap into winter casually.

But the ice fist isn't a conscious decision at all, you yourself point out he was surprised by the ice. he never mentions drawing upon winter. So it's not a choice, at least consciously. Hence why I saw winter reacted. As it does not do the same unintentional results anywhere else besides when he's either consciously using the mantle, or intentionally loosing himself in it.

[Quantus]

But the ice fist isn't a conscious decision at all, you yourself point out he was surprised by the ice.

I said the actual /Ice/ effect was not a conscious choice, rather tapping into Winter Energy was.  He can tap teh energy consciously, but the energy itself has an elemental leaning/nature (as opposed to being generic magic energy that is shaped to an element by a wizard).

[/quote]
he never mentions drawing upon winter. So it's not a choice, at least consciously. Hence why I saw winter reacted. As it does not do the same unintentional results anywhere else besides when he's either consciously using the mantle, or intentionally loosing himself in it.
[/quote]Sure he does, all the time (See CD exampled below). And in SG he spends some time speculating on how it might interact with his wizard talents, and that he fears relying on it too often. 

I ground my teeth, dug into the cold power of Winter, and kept drawing more.

I poured it on, holding nothing back, reaching deep into me, to the source of cold power inside me, and sending it out into the muck of the lake bottom.  [...]As the power poured out of me, the water did what it always did with magic—it began to diffuse it, to spread it out.

In that last one he was literally just pouring Winter Energy into the water until it froze; normal mortal magic would have just been grounded out and diffused. 


Lets get into a different thread for this though, dont want to derail the Entropy question on a discussion of mantle mechanics. 

[jamescagney22]

Carlos's magic is more of a thermodynamic Entropy:

(click to show/hide)

Entropy Curses and the Fomor Entropy Magic are Bad Luck Spells, more along the lines of the Murphionic Hexes that inject additional chaos into a system until it breaks:

(click to show/hide)

There was no mention of it during SmF that Im aware of, any more than she showed the Sight or strong Thaumaturgy, as Our World mentions.  By Changes she had all that "One Woman Rave" illusion magic, so Id suspect Fire as a component of Holomancy.  It makes more sense for her to try than Earth or Water, given Harry is the one teaching her.  For that matter, since Harry struggles with the weight of Earth Magic and Molly struggles with only Air, I wonder if she could use earth magic at all?
Best Explanation I can offer is that the Mantles offer you a Power Source.  Anyone (with said mantle) can channel that power directly, and it manifests as it naturally does: as Fire and/or Ice.  But those with their own skills with manipulate those energies (ie wizard talents) have more flexibility.  Im a nerd, so in this context I think of the Mantle as a big car Battery: hand anyone a Car battery and they can use it to Weld, which is undeniably cool and useful. But a person who brings their own electrical/electronic system to the table can do a hell of a lot more with the energy in that battery. 

And it's not just Mantles, the same is more or less true for lots of things.  The Vampires (whites at least) can use their Hunger to Juice magic if they have the skills. All Denarian hosts get some basic powers and shapeshifting and whatnot, but if they take the time to learn magic they get hellfire-enhanced spells and such.

So basically Carlos is a specific type of entropy while entropomancy is a broad category of disruption curses, and bad luck. Does the Fomor use magic like Carlos as well? I thought they used water magic in the same way he did but now I am not so sure.