White Court, Venatori and Kemmler

[Kindler]

I don't know about them being forgotten in the well.  If you're an (effectively) Immortal being and your buddy, also and Immortal is locked up in the well, are you going to forget them?

I'm beginning to think that part of the goal of Peace Talks will be for the Fomor to negotiate the release of some of the inmates.

I'm not sure that applies; I've always thought that it was mortal memory that counted, for the Oblivion War and other things. Like Mab working with Disney (conjecture by Harry in Cold Days) to spread fairy tales in the last century. She should have all the Sidhe belief she needs, what with the millions of soldiers hanging out at the Outer Gates. I figured similar rules apply to Cthulhu.

[Con]

I'm not sure that applies; I've always thought that it was mortal memory that counted, for the Oblivion War and other things. Like Mab working with Disney (conjecture by Harry in Cold Days) to spread fairy tales in the last century. She should have all the Sidhe belief she needs, what with the millions of soldiers hanging out at the Outer Gates. I figured similar rules apply to Cthulhu.

Confirmed by Thomas in the Short Story Back Up and COnfirmed by the dedication in the Grimm book in Cold Days. Mab spread fairy tales.

[Kindler]

Confirmed by Thomas in the Short Story Back Up and COnfirmed by the dedication in the Grimm book in Cold Days. Mab spread fairy tales.

I meant her work with Walt Disney specifically—Harry makes a guess after reading the dedication in Cold Days. I'm still not sure what the rules are for belief and power among entities like Mab and Odin. Is it a source of power? Is it outright necessary for their survival? If enough people forget about a specific mask (using Kringle/Odin's term from the end of Cold Days), is that mask destroyed? There are hints that many of them have had to change roles over the centuries, picking up cultural influence with one as another's influence wanes.

Really makes me wonder who else the Erlking is (*cough*Hades*coughcough*), and what would have happened if Harry fell into the Erlking's lair while he was off being someone else. Are some of them capable of bilocation?

I know I gush about the Dresden Files all the time (to the point that my family has banned discussion of it during dinner), but one of the reasons I love it so much is that you can have this kind of question and have a reasonable expectation that Mr. Butcher would know the answer.

[Con]

Hades as Erlking... huh can't believe I hadn't thought of that.

Mostly I still refer to the meaning of anagram Erlking and Kringle

[jonas]

Hades as Erlking... huh can't believe I hadn't thought of that.

Mostly I still refer to the meaning of anagram Erlking and Kringle

Huh, interesting. Never caught that.

[Rasins]

I'm not sure that applies; I've always thought that it was mortal memory that counted, for the Oblivion War and other things. Like Mab working with Disney (conjecture by Harry in Cold Days) to spread fairy tales in the last century. She should have all the Sidhe belief she needs, what with the millions of soldiers hanging out at the Outer Gates. I figured similar rules apply to Cthulhu.

Not knowing for sure what the requirements are for any being to be consigned to oblivion, and by that I mean I don't know what kind of being is ABLE to be consigned.

CAN a Naggloshii be consigned, for example?

[Froklsnt]

Not knowing for sure what the requirements are for any being to be consigned to oblivion, and by that I mean I don't know what kind of being is ABLE to be consigned.

CAN a Naggloshii be consigned, for example?

The Naggloshii that are on the mortal plane are already here, so Oblivion isn't an option for them. They don't need a mortal to allow their influence on this plane because they're already here, and can influence just fine themselves, thank you. A Naggloshii in the Nevernever, as a semi-divine being, is probably at risk for that, though.


There is a separate, unanswered question about how mortal belief affects non-mortal beings who are already here. I expect we will get a lot of answers to that in book 18, which Jim told the DF Podcast would be about washed up gods as pro-wrestlers.

[Rasins]

The Naggloshii that are on the mortal plane are already here, so Oblivion isn't an option for them. They don't need a mortal to allow their influence on this plane because they're already here, and can influence just fine themselves, thank you. A Naggloshii in the Nevernever, as a semi-divine being, is probably at risk for that, though.


There is a separate, unanswered question about how mortal belief affects non-mortal beings who are already here. I expect we will get a lot of answers to that in book 18, which Jim told the DF Podcast would be about washed up gods as pro-wrestlers.

Well, sort of.  Those Naggloshii that are in the Well Came from another realm and were supposed to go back but decided to stay.  Would that be enough, after removing them from mortal memory to consign them?

[Froklsnt]

Well, sort of.  Those Naggloshii that are in the Well Came from another realm and were supposed to go back but decided to stay.  Would that be enough, after removing them from mortal memory to consign them?

I think that falls into the unanswered questions of how belief affects (semi)divine beings on the mortal plane.  Maybe if no one knew what it was, it would be powerless. Maybe it could pop out of the Well one day and simply go "Ahh! After ten thousand years I'm free! It's time to conquer Earth!" 

I don't think we've been given that information yet. My guess is that it would be weakened but still able to act. In that state, it could make itself known to mortals and begin fostering new beliefs about it, and rebuilding it's power, like Odin did. I think there's a WoJ about creatures inspiring new legends to regain their power.

[Rasins]

I think that falls into the unanswered questions of how belief affects (semi)divine beings on the mortal plane.  Maybe if no one knew what it was, it would be powerless. Maybe it could pop out of the Well one day and simply go "Ahh! After ten thousand years I'm free! It's time to conquer Earth!" 

I don't think we've been given that information yet. My guess is that it would be weakened but still able to act. In that state, it could make itself known to mortals and begin fostering new beliefs about it, and rebuilding it's power, like Odin did. I think there's a WoJ about creatures inspiring new legends to regain their power.

See, and what I'm picturing is the opposite.  I'm picturing that once they are sufficiently forgotten, they disappear out of the well.  Eventually leaving a depression where a new inmate could be place.

[jonas]

See, and what I'm picturing is the opposite.  I'm picturing that once they are sufficiently forgotten, they disappear out of the well.  Eventually leaving a depression where a new inmate could be place.

I whole heartedly agree. Think that's part of the point of imprisonment, to waste away into oblivion. Explains the way some of them aren't Named, any identity itself has been forgotten but the idea itself, the entity is not.
Jim says this is much to do with why 'God' can't be forgotten, someone will always wonder, "who created all this?" and.. I think that's why outsiders/beyond reality will never cease either.

[Froklsnt]

See, and what I'm picturing is the opposite.  I'm picturing that once they are sufficiently forgotten, they disappear out of the well.  Eventually leaving a depression where a new inmate could be place.

Fascinating idea. Could be. That theory would mean that everything in there right now, all 12 (or 13) hallways worth of beasties are still known on Earth. In that case, either the previous wardens were very busy adding inmates, or it takes geologic levels of time for these things to be "sufficiently forgotten."

[Kindler]

Fascinating idea. Could be. That theory would mean that everything in there right now, all 12 (or 13) hallways worth of beasties are still known on Earth. In that case, either the previous wardens were very busy adding inmates, or it takes geologic levels of time for these things to be "sufficiently forgotten."

I thought nobody else on the planet had heard of Spring-Heeled Jack until they did a two-parter that referenced it on Luther. Not a single person I brought it up to had ever heard of it, and that one's not even two centuries old. I can't even remember where I first heard the story, come to think about it; isn't there some kind of Word of Jim about how every kid just knows the lyrics to "Jingle Bells, Batman Smells" without ever learning it? I think a lot of stories are just kind of like that; we pick them up, but it's totally organic, like they have a life of their own. Ditto with some entities.

I wonder if the stories changing affects them at all.

Either way, I think the printing press really screwed things up. Someone should go back in time and stop Gutenberg before they Consume Us All.

[kazimmoinuddin]

I think those entities need mortals, those with soul and free will to tie themselves to the material realm.

For some reason I could see some of peace talks carried out on demon reach due to its security.

Once an entity is forgotten, it might become vulnerable. It could loose what power it has and fade away, the energy draining into the well. At certain places, immortals can loose or gain energy, so if forgotten it might imply it can no longer retain power.

I have this theory, that the well can be used against those linked/tied to the inmates. Sort of how the rcv essence was stripped from mortals. Say all the skinwalkers were in the well, the well could be used to strike their descendants and apprentices, those that use their corrupted lore. The skinwalkers are kind of the source of their power. Sort of like how the faerie queens are tied to the courts, if one is affected so the other would as well.

[Con]

Ah I have heard of spring-heeled jack but only in passing on The Sanctuary.

Disney'll make a movie of it and revive it just like they did with Jack Frost in Guardians.

Love that movie. Gonna make a new topic about best adaptions of myth and folklore.