White Court, Venatori and Kemmler

[Con]

So we know the White Court are the primary caretakers of the Venatores whose purpose it is to wiped out world threatening supernatural beings and organisations through Black Ops. My question is who and what beings/organisations have they been succesful in doing this too?

Top Three Contenders.
-Black Court
-Various Fomor Entities that banded together to create the Fomor

My personal theory:

Kemmler.

Think about it.

We know Lara organised the publishing of Bram Stoker's book a manual on killing Black Court. Which if you think about it was inspired by the reverse status quo of the Ventori which was destroy all books with knowledge of a creature. NOt too mention someone had to lead all the raging mobs to the various Black Court Nests.

The Black Court was an extensive organisation with 30 Elders capable of taking on Mab are we expected to believe the raging Mob's happened upon their nests?

We know Kemmler had links to the Black Court and that his Necromancy and the Darkhallow are tied to the Black Court and their Ascension Rite.

We know that the Kemmler published three books of which their aren't very many copies of any left alone the last copy of the Word of Kemmler. That is precisely Venatori MO.

Kemmler was getting majorly powerful, enough to perform the Darkhallow. Someone would have had to have kept tipping the White Council off to where he was each time he rose from the grave.

It also explains some of Thomas's actions during Dead Beat. Urging Harry to contact the White Council for instance.

So who else do you think the Venatori have succesfully or partially succesfully taken down. I guess we can include Thomas's assist in taking down the Red Court as one and Lara's support in the aftermath.

Think they'll someday succeed in making humanity forget the Titans?

[wardenferry419]

Their successes are measured by the absence of knowledge of their foe's existence.

[Zaphodess]

So we know the White Court are the primary caretakers of the Venatores ...

Huge assumption there in your first sentence. Given that the Archive plays a major role in the Oblivion war according to WoJ, I'd rather assume she is masterminding the Venatori.

[Con]

You're right completely left out the Archive. Hmm I'll edit a revised post later.

[jonas]

We know Lara organised the publishing of Bram Stoker's book a manual on killing Black Court. Which if you think about it was inspired by the reverse status quo of the Ventori which was destroy all books with knowledge of a creature.

Not sure where you got WCV are caretakers of venatori, we only know Laura and Thomas are involved? But... My personal theory, and since Laura as the Venator cut out would know/understand better how it all works and was directly involved with stoker, two points that back up my idea,
They did the opposite, they gave belief to something that had found it's way inside but hadn't been truly defined by the mortals currently dealing with them, except as invincible creatures of the shadows. Stoker changed that not by publicizing their secret weakness's, but by causing belief about them to create said weakness's. Taking something new and not well known(possibly coupled with something ancient and not well remembered) and giving it limits and curtailing it through belief. Notice the BCV are most effected by faith too, I think that factors into both the cause and effect here.

[Zaphodess]

I just had a thought about Mavra in Dead Beat. What if she is a Venator too? The reason Lara is is that she wants to get rid of competition. Gods don't seem to have much use for Vampires ... they feed on and destroy too many sources of potential power. Reason enough that no new ones arise.

Stoker changed that not by publicizing their secret weakness's, but by causing belief about them to create said weakness's.

Sorry to be so blunt about it, but it seems to me that's a bit too simple. Belief is more than wishful thinking. Something in the universe has to back it up. Otherwise all those storks with their heads in the sand wouldn't lose out on the evolutionary lottery so badly.

[jonas]

I just had a thought about Mavra in Dead Beat. What if she is a Venator too? The reason Lara is is that she wants to get rid of competition. Gods don't seem to have much use for Vampires ... they feed on and destroy too many sources of potential power. Reason enough that no new ones arise.
Sorry to be so blunt about it, but it seems to me that's a bit too simple. Belief is more than wishful thinking. Something in the universe has to back it up. Otherwise all those storks with their heads in the sand wouldn't lose out on the evolutionary lottery so badly.

Define your problem better than blunt opinion that I might smite it down with the bluntness it rode ye in on or do you think people just randomly day dream about taking control of their lives, about being safe from monsters in the dark or that there's a 'cure all' to anything or do they actually hope and believe them? an idea's a powerful thing, the stokerocalpse was caused by a book, and it ended by and large through the same mob methodology used in said book. why? Because after being introduced to the idea they choose to believe it was possible. By and large otherwise it coulda happened the same way waaay before any book on how to. Still had Clerics, still had fire... Nothing changed but the belief in the possibilities
fyi, the storks hide with fear, not with faith.

[Zaphodess]

Define your problem better than blunt opinion that I might smite it down with the bluntness it rode ye in on or do you think people just randomly day dream about taking control of their lives, about being safe from monsters in the dark or that there's a 'cure all' to anything or do they actually hope and believe them? an idea's a powerful thing, the stokerocalpse was caused by a book, and it ended by and large through the same mob methodology used in said book. why? Because after being introduced to the idea they choose to believe it was possible. By and large otherwise it coulda happened the same way waaay before any book on how to. Still had Clerics, still had fire... Nothing changed but the belief in the possibilities
fyi, the storks hide with fear, not with faith.

Of course the book gave people power and hope. Knowledge is power. And of course people believed in the methods described. They worked. You were arguing that the methods only worked because people believed in them, that they became effective via blind belief. That's not very logical imho. Someone had to try them for the first time and that person can't have been too confident about their chances of survival at the time. They were facing a Black Court Vampire. The first guy to try anything from Stoker's repertoire was probably very surprised they made it.

Stoker himself or his informants had to collect the information before they put them together in a book of mass-destruction. If your reversal of cause and effect would have worked, they could have just made up the weaknesses of the Black Court. If that method worked, you could kill anything that way.

[jonas]

Of course the book gave people power and hope. Knowledge is power. And of course people believed in the methods described. They worked. You were arguing that the methods only worked because people believed in them, that they became effective via blind belief.

And there your arguing that of course they believed in prescribed methods because they worked but we have no proof whatsoever that they went after BCV in such a way before Stoker. So your placing the chicken before the egg.

That's not very logical imho. Someone had to try them for the first time and that person can't have been too confident about their chances of survival at the time. They were facing a Black Court Vampire. The first guy to try anything from Stoker's repertoire was probably very surprised they made it.

They were facing unknowable evils that hadn't yet been defined. Before Stoker mortals didn't know jack about it being BCV, hence why they got confabulated with the black death, a simple disease. Bob voices it directly and shows proof ppl just didn't 'believe' anything about them priori, They didn't even have a name for Reinfeilds. Why is that signifigant? Because not even wizards, the mostly likeliest to twig to BCV don't have any other word but that which stoker used. Stoker defined them in name just like he defined the BCV in identity.

Stoker himself or his informants had to collect the information before they put them together in a book of mass-destruction. If your reversal of cause and effect would have worked, they could have just made up the weaknesses of the Black Court. If that method worked, you could kill anything that way.

Stoker had informants or he himself? proof of that? cause it seems like you just pulled that one out of the air there, he was informed by lara. Whom we know is part of the oblivion war and understands both identity and how mortal belief effects it.

[Rasins]

I kind of got the impression that Stoker had gotten the vast majority of his information straight from the Whites.  And that there were a LOT of other supernatural nations that were getting very concerned about their rise in power.  So there were several efforts to take them out.

Stoker just got the mortals involved.

[Quantus]

I kind of got the impression that Stoker had gotten the vast majority of his information straight from the Whites.  And that there were a LOT of other supernatural nations that were getting very concerned about their rise in power.  So there were several efforts to take them out.

Stoker just got the mortals involved.

That's my read as well. I havent seen any actual mention of other schemes, but he does confirm that Everyone resented the sudden power of the Blacks, and also that Lara/the WC was behind Bram (who Jim described as the Cut-Out man of the scheme). 

See, so I was right.  He didn't die of syphilis.  Lara wouldn't have had it (her demon would have killed it, assuming she'd ever been exposed), and I doubt she'd have had fun times with Stoker if he already had it.  So Lara ate him, and then spread the story that he died of syphilis.  (OK, I admit it, my theory was that the black court killed him and spread the false story.  But I still claim being right that in the DV Stoker did not die of syphilis. )

Die of syphilis?  God, no, man.  Stoker was the cutout.

The BC didn't /know/ about the WC's involvement until well after the fact, at which point it was entirely academic.  The BC who are left survive because they are extremely pragmatic.  They don't have enough trouble surviving /without/ picking a fight with the entire White Court, who will only send the peasants and pitchforks anyway?  If one needs to vent one's spleen, one does it on hapless mortals, preferably those no one will miss.

The BC who wanted to get all ballsy about Just Vengeance died in the fifties and sixties, culminating in the heyday of the Hammer films.

I think that was all within the text.  I didn't record Jim saying it, but that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't.

The text definitely says that the Wampires somehow motivated Stoker to write his books though.  And Jim does sorta confirm that Stoker was killed for being spot on.

Stoker was killed for being delicious.

Lara: Bram, Bram, Bram.  You've done so well.  Time for your reward.

Lara (later): ...

Lara (in her journal):  It's so easy to get carried away when one works with the creative talent.  So much enthusiasm.

4. if the elders of the black court could have taken mab, then HOW ON EARTH did any mere force of humans manage to go up and stake them? i mean, they should've wiped out anything that was coming after them if they can take on MAB herself...just a thought
Power in the spirit world isn't the same thing as power in the material world.  And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BC) is WAY different than a one-on-20,000 fight (a BC vampire against a modest mortal city).  Especially when the 20,000 know what your weaknesses are, and how to kill you with them. Smiley  And that's assuming that you don't have a saint, or an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies on your side which was not uncommon.  Hell, for that matter, you might well be aided by vampires from the other Courts.  *Everyone* resented how powerful the Blacks had become.

[Con]

Do you think given the theory that the Black Court were created in part from energy from The Outside, that the Archive had a direct hand in ordering Lara and the Ventores to get rid of them?

[Zaphodess]

Stoker had informants or he himself? proof of that? cause it seems like you just pulled that one out of the air there, he was informed by lara. Whom we know is part of the oblivion war and understands both identity and how mortal belief effects it.

Raisins and Quantus have already provided the quotes, so yep, Stoker had informants. Lara Raith. We don't know exactly how she got the information, but it's not very hard to figure out imo. She probably collected it from various sources. And maybe Stoker himself was encouraged to figure some things out. How they put it all together isn't that important though, imo. The thing is that it was information about weaknesses of the Black Court that was already true. You were arguing that the publication of those weaknesses somehow was a catalyst for the methods to become effective because people believed in them. I only pointed out that this was an over-simplification of the way how belief works in the DV in my very humble opinion. People don't start believing in things because they read about them in a novel. Ok, some do, but that's not the normal case. I'm sure that very few readers of the Dresden Files rely on crying out "Forzare" at their opponents when they end up in a fight. 

Now, I don't argue that it isn't possible for some of those methods to be more effective if people really believed in them. Especially the faith magic. Simply because people would have more faith or stronger faith if they started to believe that it can help them against monsters. That makes the attack stronger, not the vulnerability to it of the monster. But would a belief in the effectiveness of garlic against BCV increase the effect? I don't think so. For some odd reason, BCV can be killed by throwing garlic at them. Maybe garlic is a substance that is especially life-affirming, so much so that the Necro-magic that holds together a BCV implodes upon contact. Why doesn't the same thing happen if you throw an apple at the creature if someone truly believed that it should be more effective because they don't like garlic and apples are more life-affirming? Because it doesn't work and the idiot gets killed relying on a substance that just doesn't have the same effect and his reasoning was faulty because it wasn't the vitamins or the taste but one of the oils that can be found in garlic has a very specific reaction to the BCV magic aura. Theoretically, some nuts that grow in Indonesia would work as well, but nobody has figured it out yet because it's still a mystery why it is garlic of all things out there that can kill the BC.

[Con]

Garlic has traditionally been used as a ward in rural communities going back centuries as it was used to ward away predators.

Traditionally it was wolfsbane and hemlock that caused pain to Vampires and Werewolves, which is an actual poison. Over the years Garlic being a warded herb attached to supperstition got conflated with the use of poisons attached with superstition. Stoker's book actually lists garlic, wolfsbane and hemlock together as an amalgamation of herbs that can be used against vampires.

[jonas]

Raisins and Quantus have already provided the quotes, so yep, Stoker had informants. Lara Raith. We don't know exactly how she got the information, but it's not very hard to figure out imo.

I already said that in the little bit you quoted, then pointed out why that's significant and why your early assertation that Stoker had informants or researched himself was off track... you can't say it one way before and claim you meant something else now... that's not what you were referring to earlier

Stoker himself or his informants had to collect the information before they put them together in a book of mass-destruction.

It's not linearly connected to the idea Stoker researched or 'had informants' vs what I already pointed out, Lara did it. Who is also a venator who knows all about how the oblivion war works. It's not a big leap when Mab had Disney make fairy land to cement the Sidhe back in that someone else can do the same. Someone else who knows the value of mortal information.