Hierarchy of the Courts

[Con]

WARNING: Lengthy post.

So I've been thinking about Mab and the Winter Court and what the higher members of a court owe their Sovereign or Sovereigns.

Summer Knight- Lea sells Harry’s debt to Mab to exchange a balance for the power that Morgana’s Athame gave her. Which gives Mab power over Harry.
We also know that Lord Marshall Talon had to obey Summer Lady Aurora even when she was directly working against her own Court.
Similarly Lloyd had to obey Maeve's orders, although he did show signs of rebellion and was working for Aurora which is where his Free Will comes into play.
Blood Rites-
Dead Beat- Harry summons Leanansidhe, but gets Mab instead.

“Disturb me? Hardly. I am here only to fulfil the duties I have been obliged to take upon myself. It is no fault of thine that this summons reached mine ears”

“My vassal’s oaths and bargains are binding upon me, so long as I restrain her from fulfilling them.”
“Does that mean that you will help me?” I asked.
“It means that I will give you what she might give you” Mab said and speak what knowledge she might have spoken to you were she here in flesh, rather than in proxy”

Proven Guilty- is a mess and everyone likes discussing it, but I'll keep it brief. Lily has Fix as a loyal retainer, Maeve tried to enact revenge on the Werewolf's using Jenny Greenteeth her loyal Handmaiden at this point thanks to Nemfection was able to lie through her teeth. Leanansidhe had requested the Mab cure her of Nemfection through Winter Torture. Finally Lilly was able to give Harry a Summer Boon despite Titania's hatred of him.

White Night- see's Lara Raith capturing the Little Folk to use as lanterns as a calculated insult against Faerie to see if the debts and obligations of Lord and Master and Peasant folk still applied. Dresden then gets reputation and a boost in the Za Lord's Guard, making Toot more powerful as his name and rank grow.

Small Favour- The Gruff's seem to be Titania's personal order of hit men, however Eldest Gruff can divert Titania's direct order enough so that he fulfils another debt and order to the Summer Court, like getting a frosty doughnut with sprinkles on it. Eldest Gruff is also able to advise Titania against killing Harry. Mab also orders the Grimalkin to speak for her as she’s too in wounded rage to speak.

Changes- Mab is able to send two retainers with full Winter powers at their disposal to fight and wipe out the Red Court. Lea is used as a sock puppet to speak for Mab, but is reprimanded when she speaks out of turn.

"It is not for my handmaiden to judge or question me, nor to speak for me upon her own account"

Lea is allowed "to indulge herself".

"I  give thee this adviser fir thy final quest, sir Knight. My handmaiden is among the most powerful beings in all of my Winter, second only to myself"
Lea's warmer, more languid voice came from her lips as she asked, "My queen to what degree am I permitted to act?"
I thought I saw the fell light gleam on Mab's teeth as she said "You may indulge yourself"

Erlking plays wordplay of guest right and obligation with Harry in his Hall but warns Harry to summon Mab’s name thrice as that would be an invasion of his territory and against the little games of protocol.

Ghost Story- Mab is able with all of her strength combine it with Demonreach, Bonnea "the parasite" and Uriel Preserve Harry's life force until his Soul reenters it, all the while taking down a potential threat in Corpsetaker and the Fomor. Lea later confirms in Ghost Story that Mab would not have been able to order Lea to fight the Red Court as she did. That Lea owed the Red Court a debt of violence for making her nemfected.

“Tsk. In all of Winter, I am second in power only to Mab which she has allowed because I have incurred with it proportionate obligation to her. She is my dearest enemy, but even I do not owe Mab so much. I helped you as much as I did, sweet child, because I owed you for collecting a portion of my due justice from Bianca” The Leanansidh said. Her eyes grew wider, wilder. “The rest I took from the little whore’s masters. Though I admit, I hadn’t expected the collection to be quite so thorough.”

Lea also confirms in this scene that Faerie's can't act without a balancing act in return.

"Indeed" she said beaming at me. "There must be balance sweet godchild. Always balance. Never take a thing without giving such a thing in return; never give a favor without collecting one in return. All reality depends on balance"

Plus there’s this this little tidbit

If Lea had been the high priestess of murder, bloodlust, scheming and manipulation, then Mab was the Goddess my godmother worshipped. Come to think of it that was probably an apt description of their relationship.

Leanansidhe is also training Molly is a back up Winter Lady at this point.

Cold Days- Mab obligate’s Kringle, Eldest Gruff and The Erlking to attend her new Winter Knight's Birthday Party.
Meanwhile The Redcap is allowed to directly challenge the Winter Knight, Mab's latest toy. The Redcap is allowed to continue to pursue this grudge at the behest of Maeve despite Harry working on Mab's direct orders.
The Mother’s have shared insight or consciousness and know everything their counter part knows within the Courts. They also look over deadly world plague’s until time for their release.
Cat Sith is obligated and ordered to assist Harry in anyway Harry requests and does so at great lengths.
Kringle has some fun on the Wildhunt fighting Outsiders, helping fulfill the Winter Knight's mission.

Skin Game- Mab owe's Nicodemus a debt as she utilised him before she had realised she could promote Leansidhe higher in her court. Kringle reveals that if Mab had called upon Vadderung she would have been told to get in line.

"The Winter Knight called for me in his official capacity as an agent of the Winter Court. Mab has the right to summon Kringle. If she’d called for Vadderung, I'd have told her to get in line"
….
“Legally speaking, Kringle and Vadderung are two entirely different people who simply happen to reside in the same body” he replied
“That’s just a fiction” I said “a little game of protocol”
“Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those with whom one does not get along famously well. It can be tedious, but generally is less trouble than a duel would be.”

Ok so that’s all the evidence we have of hierarchy, obligations and favours within the Faerie Courts in the books proper.
Now if we take Mab’s statement that Lea is second in Winter as literal truth which it has to be as she can’t make a direct outright lie. Then Lea is even more powerful than Maeve the Winter Lady, despite the fact that the Ladies are sovereigns and immortals.
Take this and add what we know about Kringle combined with this WOJ

Where are the Farie kings?  Do they exist?
Yes they do.  The Erlking as sort of the Hunter king, and Santa Clause, the Winter king who is not the commercial Santa Clause.  The kings are sort of the opposite of the queens in their given season.  They are independent of their Queen’s courts.  The Erlking is a summer king and he is not a particularly friendly guy, whereas Santa Clause, one of the winter kings, is kinder, the spirit of generosity in a time of bleakness.  Yah I’ve gota have Harry ask Mab about him so she can roll her eyes.
Dudesan: You've described Santa Claus as being the Winter King. What does that title mean? Do Winter and Summer each have a trinity of Father/King/Prince, like they do with Mother/Queen/Lady? Is the King necessarily the consort of the Queen? If so, will we be seeing Oberon at some point?
Jim: 5) The Faerie realms just aren't that structured. It's more accurate to say that he is /a/ Winter King. Or even more accurately, that he is a free Wyld Fae who is of a power level that is on par with Mab's and happens to neighbor her sphere of influence, and finds it simpler to show up to family dinners during the holidays and make polite than to start staking out boundaries and establishing treaties.
Oberon... well, the guy kind of wound up between Mab and Titania in one of those romantic triangle things, back around Shakespeare's day. He didn't make it.
2013 KC signing Q&A
Is Kringle Fae?
His mantle, yes, is part of the Winter Court. Which does not necessarily mean that he himself is Fae as much as the fact that his mantle is. While he’s there, he’s got to pay deference to Mab. If Mab gives him a command, he has to obey it.

If we were to make a chart of Hierarchy of the Courts than it would look something like this.
Mother Winter Atropis and Skuld-Queen Mab-(Leanansidhe)- Lady Molly
               Kringle
Mother Summer- Queen Titania- (Eldest Gruff)- Lady Sarissa
         Erlking
Where else do you think other Faerie’s exist in this hierarchy, under what terms does a powerful member of Faerie obey or have obligations to the Queens. Kringle seems to mostly be a formality, of showing up when asked, but does not have any direct orders of obedience to follow.
Leanansidhe seems to have a bit more debt and obligation to Mab. Being required to give up Harry’s significant debt, be Mab’s mouth piece, Train Molly as a potential Winter Lady. However even she can’t be ordered by Mab to go all out against the Red Court as she did.
Eldest Gruff is able to divert or subvert a direct order from his Queen in exchange for honouring a debt to Summer Court.
Jim has stated that Erlking isn’t required to obey Titania, but presumably their’s similar levels of formality that Kringle has to go through, particularly given the Erlking’s concern and obedience to Harry’s wordplay during Changes.

Also what other King’s or Lords of Winter and Summer are their?
I’ve always thought that Jack Frost and Peter Pan would make great Winter and Summer Princes respectively. Jack Frost has the power to manipulate Shadows, so in my head he played a prank on Peter Pan and separated Peter’s shadow.
Jack Frost is also first mentioned in a poem obeying Santa Claus, so there’s that connection.

Any other figures from folklore who’d be good candidates as powerful members of Faerie?

Discuss and Thanks for reading

[KurtinStGeorge]

That's an interesting post.  I think I'll have to reread it at a later time to add more than this.  We don't know if Lord Talos (I think that was his name.) survived newly changed troll Meryl falling on him in Summer Knight.  I tend to think he didn't survive but we can't be certain.  There was also the Centaur Korrick, though I think he was more muscle than high ranking official. 

Also, I'm not sure where Cat Sith fits into the Winter hierarchy but malks seen to be important to Mab because she used one as her translator.  Plus, Harry called Sith the Monarch of the Malks.  This would make him a lord in his own right who serves one greater than himself. (Mab)  If Cat Sith can't be cured my guess is Grimalkin is probably next in line.

[Con]

I was always confused about the nature of the relationship between Grimalkin and Cat Sith whether or not they were the same type of creature or even the same being entirely. Either way both of their close relationships with Mab of directly taking her orders would suggest they're in her entourage and sphere of the Courts. Cat Sith's assistance to Harry to kill Maeve confirms it.

[Zaphodess]

Toot painted his face half blue when Harry became the Winter Knight in Changes. He said "We are Winter now".

It could come down to individual bargains and relationships, just as in medieval feudal society. A simple peasant or soldier was directly related to his lord. The lord was in a direct relationship to a duke e. g., the duke then to a king and so on. By these indirect links, the king ruled the whole country.

Things like Kringle being Vadderung with different relationships to Queen Mab were not uncommon at all in the higher aristocracy. These guys held several titles. The king of one country could own a duchy in another and technically be the vassal of someone with whom he was otherwise in an equal relationship and maybe even be at war with him.

[Mira]

I was always confused about the nature of the relationship between Grimalkin and Cat Sith whether or not they were the same type of creature or even the same being entirely. Either way both of their close relationships with Mab of directly taking her orders would suggest they're in her entourage and sphere of the Courts. Cat Sith's assistance to Harry to kill Maeve confirms it.

And the Enemy's desire to infest him, I think is more to the point.  My impression is Grimalkin and Cat Sith are the same kind of creature, and it appears they have their own pecking order.

[Con]

Toot painted his face half blue when Harry became the Winter Knight in Changes. He said "We are Winter now".

It could come down to individual bargains and relationships, just as in medieval feudal society. A simple peasant or soldier was directly related to his lord. The lord was in a direct relationship to a duke e. g., the duke then to a king and so on. By these indirect links, the king ruled the whole country.

Things like Kringle being Vadderung with different relationships to Queen Mab were not uncommon at all in the higher aristocracy. These guys held several titles. The king of one country could own a duchy in another and technically be the vassal of someone with whom he was otherwise in an equal relationship and maybe even be at war with him.

I figure that Kringle and Erlking are the equivelent of Earl's or Jarls in Germanic and Norse societies, given their both from Norse and Germanic mythologies, plus you know "Earl"king.

The only thing I know about the nature of the relationships between Earl's/Jarl's and Kings comes from the tv show Vikings where they would band together for campaigns, but that Earl's/Jarl's often had enough power to challenge the Monarch.

My question is where do these duties and obligations begin and end. Kringle has to adhere to little games of protocol, but where does Mab's power over him extend to. Given Erlking and Kringle's alliance with Mab during the events of Cold Days, there is some cooperation, but both the Erlking and Kringle have stated that they don't get along with Mab. Erlking in Changes when he warns Harry against summoning Mab another ruler into his domain, and Kringle outright states it as I've quoted above.

Does Mab now owe Kringle and Erlking a debt for Cold Days? Or were they returning the favour?

And the Enemy's desire to infest him, I think is more to the point.  My impression is Grimalkin and Cat Sith are the same kind of creature, and it appears they have their own pecking order.

So they're the same creature but in a different pecking order. Whose higher, Grimalkin as her favoured Pet, or Cat Sith as her Cat Paw * ba dum ching*

[Zaphodess]

Cold Days might have been a special case, Kringle and the Erlking might have decided to help themselves. I got the impression that the usual rules don't necessarily apply when it comes to Outsiders. They're everyone's enemy.

[Con]

That would seem to go against the nature of fairie balance and favours.

Unless the balance being redressed was Natural World vs The Outside.

[Rasins]

That would seem to go against the nature of fairie balance and favours.

Unless the balance being redressed was Natural World vs The Outside.

It could also be ... smaller adjustments being redressed. 

If Kringle and the EK do things to support Winter in their usual course of "ruling" their courts, that may be obligation, but small debts may be incurred.  By doing things like they did in Cold Days it may balance out several of these smaller favors.

[deflated]

I'm not sure there is what we would consider a hierarchy (e.g. military chain of command) in the Courts, it's more of a constantly shifting balance of power. Take Lea and Molly; Lea has a lot of personal power inherited from Mab in exchange for acting as her faithful handmaiden but must bargain with other fae to get them to act. It looks like Molly has less power (individual magical strength) than Lea but does have agents, such as the Knight, directly under her control that increases her influence.  I haven't read anything yet that would accurately place either of them in a hierarchy; words are too easy for the fae to twist for any of Lea or Mab's statements to be ironclad.

On maintaining balance: the fae have had centuries of practice at finding pretexts to act. Given the long battle with the Outsiders I'm sure Kringle and the Erlking had no problem justifying their actions in Cold Days as balancing some prior slight they had received from them.

[jonas]

That would seem to go against the nature of fairie balance and favours.

Unless the balance being redressed was Natural World vs The Outside.

That's a Balance. Probably not the only one, or at least not that easily broken down into one or the other.

[Rasins]

Jim has mentioned that if, for instance, one or more of the fallen in the coins were to be release, several balances would suddenly be out of ... balance.

So I agree there are lots of balances out there.  Some are like those when you weigh something, others are probably more like a balance found through tension, and others like the balance that is found that provides lift to an airplane (a vacuum of power?).

[Con]

I still think there had to be some sort of exchange between the Erlking and Kringle and Mab. I mean Corpsetaker was a mutual enemy too but Mab still had to redress the balance of the favour she gave to Uriel in Skin Game.

[Mira]

I still think there had to be some sort of exchange between the Erlking and Kringle and Mab. I mean Corpsetaker was a mutual enemy too but Mab still had to redress the balance of the favour she gave to Uriel in Skin Game.

What favor did Mab give to Uriel in Skin Game?   If anything it can be seen as it was in Small Favor, they had a common interest..

[Con]

And you don't think that was in an of itself a balance of exchanges? In Small Favour Mab sends Harry into battle Uriel sends the Knights of the Cross. That's an equal balance if I ever heard one.

Ghost Story the Favour was Uriel keeping Harry Soul Alive in Purgatory While Mab kept his body alive. Again both of their causes had been compromised by Harry's death.

Skin Game a repayment against the Denarians for their actions in both Small Favour and Skin Game in defeating their mutual enemy, all the while Mab gained power in WMD's of the Vault and Uriel got the chance to save multiple Souls through the actions of humanities Free Will. Including potentially Harry's.

Think of what Mac said to Mab "May your scales always return to Balance" "Flatterer"

All of those instances are about scales of balancing actions that have equal actions.

Plus I thought there was a WOJ about Skin Game being Mab clearing her ledger of favours and debts, which implied her favours and debts to Nicodemus, Uriel, Marcone and Hades. But I can't seem to find it and this hasn't been my day of misquoting hearsay WOJ's, so I won't use it in this argument.