Author Topic: Does Molly still have her soul?  (Read 14898 times)

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2017, 11:02:40 PM »
I haven't read Cold Case yet, or any of the others that will be in Brief Cases, mostly because I refuse to buy a short story compendium (I don't particularly like short stories as a format; writing them was always a chore for me, so I stuck with novels with backstory notes; reading them tends to feel rushed to me) for one entry. I don't know what her inner monologue is like, but I'm excited to find out.

I'd argue that doing something worthwhile and having a purpose is great, but that doesn't mean you're happy about the price. No matter what, Molly is paying a price, and will continue to pay it, for a very, very long time (barring, you know, destruction of reality). It's made worse since this wasn't something Molly went into willingly, with any real grasp of the consequences. The Winter Lady's Mantle was shoved down her throat.

Being willing to pay a cost to make the best of a bad situation is different from being happy about it. She may not care about it in a hundred years when the Mantle asserts itself and pieces of Molly's personality get chipped away, but I'd be willing to bet she cares now.

I'd say that things may be turning out for the best with Molly as the Winter Lady, but that doesn't preclude it from being tragic.
Not reading the short stories is like saying no thanks to icing on the cake. They often tie into and expand many parts of the overall story. But, to each their own.
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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2017, 11:38:06 PM »
Sir Stuart makes it actually pretty clear that he is not a soul, when Harry, Mort, and he are all riding out to Karrin's house.  He identifies himself as another spirit, who is not the original Sir Stuart.  This happens when Morty and Sir Stuart are discussing that the reason ghosts are created is usually because they have some unfinished business.  Sir Stuart says that he chooses, then, to take comfort in that he is his own person, who came into being specifically with a purpose - presumably, to protect his family.

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I gave Sir Stuart the eye and then Mort. "That's what you do? Lay spirits to rest?"

Mort shrugged. "If someone didn't, this town would run out of cemetery space pretty fast."

I thought about for a moment. Then I said, "So how come you haven't laid Sir Stuart to rest?"

Mort said nothing. His silence was a barbed, stony thing.

Sir Stuart leaned forward to put a hand on Mort's shoulder, seemed to squeeze it a little, and let go. Then he said to me, "Some things can't be mended, lad. Not by all the king's horses or all the king's men."

"You're trapped here," I said quietly.

"Were I trapped, it would indicate that I am the original Sir Stuart. I am not. I am but his shade. One could think of it that way nonetheless, I suppose," he said. "But I prefer to consider it differently: I regard myself as someone who was truly created with a specific purpose for his existence. I have a reason to be who and what and where I am. How many flesh-and-blood folk can say as much?"

I scowled as I watched the snowy road ahead of us. "And what's your purpose? Looking out after this loser?"

"Hey, I'm sitting right here," Mort complained.

"I help other lost spirits," Sir Stuart said. "Help them find some sort of resolution. Help teach them how to stay sane, if it is their destiny to become a mane. And if they become a lemur, I help introduce them to oblivion."

I turned to frown at Sir Stuart. "That's . . . kinda cut-and-dried."

"Some things assuredly are," he replied placidly.

"So you're a mane, eh? Like the old Roman ancestral ghost?"

"It isn't such a simple matter, Dresden.

As to why Uriel is interested in Sir Stuart - simply because Stuart is a shade, does that mean that he has no use at all to someone like Uriel?  I sincerely doubt it.  But if this is something difficult to accept, then I also will mention that Uriel mentioned that in taking Sir Stuart on, he would be using his power - which is Soulfire, essentially - to rebuild him.  And possibly, like the Six Million Dollar Man, better than he was before.

Offline peregrine

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2017, 12:03:35 AM »
Doesn't Uriel also say something along the line of Sir Stuart is more than he's had to work with before?

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2017, 12:40:19 AM »
Yes, though Uriel still identifies him as a spirit; just a far greater one than most.  And he also refers to the original Sir Stuart as a separate being.

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I went back over to Uriel to find him conversing with Sir Stuart.

"Don't know," Sir Stuart was saying. "I'm not . . . not as right as I used to be, sir."

"There's more than enough left to rebuild on," Uriel said. "Trust me. The ruins of a spirit like Sir Stuart's are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up. I'd be very pleased to have you working for me."

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2017, 12:42:28 AM »
Many creations start out as simple ideas.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2017, 04:05:40 AM »
Sir Stuart makes it actually pretty clear that he is not a soul, when Harry, Mort, and he are all riding out to Karrin's house.  He identifies himself as another spirit, who is not the original Sir Stuart.  This happens when Morty and Sir Stuart are discussing that the reason ghosts are created is usually because they have some unfinished business.  Sir Stuart says that he chooses, then, to take comfort in that he is his own person, who came into being specifically with a purpose - presumably, to protect his family.

As to why Uriel is interested in Sir Stuart - simply because Stuart is a shade, does that mean that he has no use at all to someone like Uriel?  I sincerely doubt it.  But if this is something difficult to accept, then I also will mention that Uriel mentioned that in taking Sir Stuart on, he would be using his power - which is Soulfire, essentially - to rebuild him.  And possibly, like the Six Million Dollar Man, better than he was before.
That is what he thinks he is. But they were sure Harry was just a ghost as well, that ghosts often deluded themselves in thinking they were something else. Stuart does not want to delude himself that he is more than he is. What the story shows about people is more important than what they say about themselves.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2017, 05:02:10 AM »
Yes, though Uriel still identifies him as a spirit; just a far greater one than most.  And he also refers to the original Sir Stuart as a separate being.
The words are often not that precisely used as we want to like:

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“I got shot. Or drowned. Ain’t exactly rare.” Jack lifted a big, square hand and waggled it back and forth. “It isn’t about the physical. It’s about the spiritual.”

But here I think it is used more precise but I interpred it differently. Take this as a clue:

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“I can’t talk to you about that,” he said. “What comes next is about faith, Harry. Not knowledge.”
I folded my arms. “What if I dig the ghost routine?”
“You don’t,” Uriel replied. “But even if you did, I would point out to you that your spiritual essence has been all but disintegrated. You would not last long as a shade, nor would you have the strength to aid and protect your loved ones. Should you lose your sanity, you might even become a danger to them—but if that is your desire, I can facilitate it.”

Uriel is talking about rebuilding Stuarts spirirtual essence and Stuart is talking about his spiritual weakness. His spirit is still stronger than what most men have when they die. And it can be rebuild. But what Stuart needs to rebuild it is a soul.

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I went back over to Uriel to find him conversing with Sir Stuart.

"Don't know," Sir Stuart was saying. "I'm not . . . not as right as I used to be, sir."
I is the complete sir Stuart including his soul. His weakness is weakness of spirit.
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"There's more than enough left to rebuild on," Uriel said. "Trust me. The ruins of a spirit like Sir Stuart's
The difference between spirit and soul again but nowhere is said that the soul is not there as well, it is just not weakened. It is there to rebuild the spirit.
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are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up. I'd be very pleased to have you
You is the essential Sir Stuart, the soul to be saved.
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working for me."
I do not think Uriel has mere ghosts working for him and I do not think even Uriel can rebuild a spirit if there is no soul to work with. or would be interested in doing so.
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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2017, 07:01:13 AM »
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That is what he thinks he is. But they were sure Harry was just a ghost as well, that ghosts often deluded themselves in thinking they were something else. Stuart does not want to delude himself that he is more than he is. What the story shows about people is more important than what they say about themselves.

I will agree that there certainly could be more to Sir Stuart than meets the eye, and that he could be a self-deluded shade in the other way - convinced that he is a shade when he really is a free soul.  I just don't see the evidence, though, myself.


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Uriel is talking about rebuilding Stuarts spirirtual essence and Stuart is talking about his spiritual weakness. His spirit is still stronger than what most men have when they die. And it can be rebuild. But what Stuart needs to rebuild it is a soul.

I'm not quite following you there.  What evidence do you have to state that Sir Stuart needs a soul in order to rebuild himself?

Throughout Ghost Story, we see that memories are what makes up a shade.  Sir Stuart spends a memory to fire his pistol, and regains back part of himself when he absorbs that musket shot back.  Dresden was attacked by lemurs who  were gorging on his memories, and after Bob attacked them, Harry re-absorbed his memories and healed himself.  But when Sir Stuart had his memories burned -  fire is, after all, a cleansing force - there was nothing to re-absorb.

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"Come on," I said. "Don't talk like that. We'll get you patched up."

Sir Stuart let out a small laugh. "Nay, wizard. Too much of me has been lost. I've only held together this long so that I could speak to you."

"What happened to our world being mutable in time with our expectations? Isn't that still true?"

"To a degree," Sir Stuart said affably, weakly. "I've been injured before. Small hurts are restored simply enough." He gestured at his broken body. "But this? I'll be like the others when I restore myself."

"The others?"

"The warriors who defended Mortimer's home," he said. "They faded over time. Forgetting, little by little, about their mortal lives."

The evidence is that Sir Stuart's memories are what makes him who he is.

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"Aye," Sir Stuart said. "'Tis a muzzle-loading pistol, boy. You have to reload them like a proper weapon." Idly, he reached out a hand toward the last remnants of a deceased wraith, and flickers of light and memory flowed across the intervening space and into his fingertips. When he had it all back, Sir Stuart sighed and shook his head, seeming to recover a measure of strength. "Very well, then, lad. Help me up."

As for your arguments...


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I is the complete sir Stuart including his soul. His weakness is weakness of spirit.

That's certainly one interpretation...  however, I think that when Sir Stuart says that he's not what he once was, he's still referring to the massive injury that he sustained.  Sir Stuart might have remembered a little bit about himself by fighting again, but he's still far away from being whole.  There's a gigantic difference between the cool, collected, professional Sir Stuart of the beginning of Ghost Story and the confused, somewhat vacant shell left at the end.

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"There's more than enough left to rebuild on," Uriel said. "Trust me. The ruins of a spirit like Sir Stuart's
The difference between spirit and soul again but nowhere is said that the soul is not there as well, it is just not weakened. It is there to rebuild the spirit.
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are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up. I'd be very pleased to have you
You is the essential Sir Stuart, the soul to be saved.
I don't see it.  You're dividing up Uriel's speech and saying that he isn't saying what he's saying.  You're claiming that Uriel is really talking about the soul and using as evidence that he's not saying Sir Stuart doesn't have a soul.  That's like me stating that Andi is a great transgendered hero of the story, and using as evidence the fact that she never explicitly states that she wasn't born a little boy named Andrew.

You need something more substantial than that.  You can't use as evidence the fact that someone doesn't mention something unless the fact that the information is missing is conspicuous.  If 99.9% of creatures appearing to be ghosts are simply created spirits, it doesn't cast sudden suspicion that Uriel doesn't call out the fact that Sir Stuart doesn't have a soul.  Can you point to somewhere in the books that state that a spirit like Sir Stuarts' must have a soul, or that Uriel would only work with deceased mortals and not with spirits?  I mean, I can point to sections of the Christian Bible which suggest that there are spirits who DO serve God, but that's our world, not Dresden's.

Besides, you sort of sidestepped the fact that when Uriel speaks to Sir Stuart, he refers to the original in the third person.  If Sir Stuart was the soul of the real Sir Stuart, and not an impression created upon death, there would be no reason for Uriel to say "The remains of a spirit like Sir Stuart's.  Sir Stuart would be right there, and Uriel wouldn't be talking of him in the third person.  Instead, the phrasing would naturally be, "The remains of a spirit like yours are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up."

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I do not think Uriel has mere ghosts working for him and I do not think even Uriel can rebuild a spirit if there is no soul to work with. or would be interested in doing so.
What makes you disregard the one piece of evidence that Uriel does have mere ghosts working for him as untrue?

Furthermore, what makes you believe that a being that can destroy solar systems without a second thought, and works for a being who is beyond time itself, cannot recreate the memories that Sir Stuart lost?  What makes you so certain that a soul is necessary?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 07:04:40 AM by DonBugen »

Offline Arjan

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2017, 07:22:02 AM »
Creating is always more difficult than destroying, Ask Bob. Maybe it is more impressive to create one soul than to destroy the universe.

And even if Uriel could create a soul that wouldn't be the same one. Uriel talked about rebuilding not building something new. The soul is the essential Stuartness, without it the spirit is only a collection of memories. Adding new memories without a soul to work, without them being your own memories will just damage you.

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Offline Arjan

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2017, 12:59:38 PM »
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Quote from: Arjan on September 26, 2017, 12:13:40 PM

    A view of the dresden files in book christians.It is also about what happens with it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if in the dresden files hindus get reincarnated and christians not. The books are pretty vague about what next is, it is entirely possible.

    Besides knowing about the soul and an afterlife is not the same as valueing it. Maybe you want to escape the cycle. Maybe you want to stay behind as a shade to help your descendants. Maybe you want to find a purpose like Mab did.The white god is a title you use if you are not a follower. The white god was not that important in the past and he might not be that important in the future. Things change.

    She knows Hades as well, a lot of souls went to the him in stead of the Christian afterlife. She probably expected to go somewhere else.

    It is not just about what is but also about how you look at it. Why would she want to be a shade attending some god that is not hers? She has a purpose, she has fullfillment. Eternity is overrated.

    Ask Gard, she will tell something similar.

    I think Michael will be concerned but strangely enough I think Uriel is not, I do not see any evidence for it in the books.

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    The same story [Backup] seemed to imply that entities could gain or lose power retroactively, in a wibbley-wobbly timey-wimey sort of way. For example, The Almighty is the Creator of the Universe, but He hasn't always been the Creator of the Universe[4] . Is there anything to this assumption, and if so, might we see it explored in greater detail later?
    Jim: 7) You're assigning limits where there aren't any. In the Dresden Files universe, what changes really isn't the actual beings. It's our understanding of who and what they are

That is absolutely beautiful. It means that nothing we say about it has to have any meaning at all when our understanding changes. Because our understanding can change significantly.So if our understanding is that souls reincarnate then that is what happens, at least as we understand it.


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Offline Kindler

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2017, 01:05:24 PM »
Not reading the short stories is like saying no thanks to icing on the cake. They often tie into and expand many parts of the overall story. But, to each their own.

I read the Dresden Files short stories, specifically for that reason, but I don't read any from other authors. I haven't even bothered with the novellas for the Iron Druid books (though mostly because all of the side characters' narrations are annoyingly written in present tense, which I find extremely tedious). I meant that I was waiting for Brief Cases rather than buying a dozen other anthologies for the single entries I actually want to read. I went through Side Jobs and the Bigfoot trilogy because they were self-contained. It's one of the reasons I was pumped when Brief Cases was announced last month; there are gaps I want to fill.

As for Sir Stuart: Soul or not, I want to know what Uriel's got him doing now. Maybe we'll get to check in with Mort in Peace Talks.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2017, 06:32:44 PM »
As to the original topic, I recall Bob mentioning that we leave bits of our souls around all the time but they regrow. I think the key to that regrowth is our human connections.

The Fae still leave bits of soul around, but without han connections, they don't regrow them. In Cold Days Mab only had the tiniest sliver of soul because she still had one connection to a normal mundane life - Sarissa. Now that Sarissa is Fae, Mab is going to fade quickly until Harry is forced to kill her, setting off the BAT.

How quickly Molly's soul disappears depends upon how much time she spends regrowing her soul by hanging out with her family.