Mab/Murphy Ironies

[Kindler]

Escape could be one option. My preferred option is that the dreams of mortals drew these outsiders to us like a beacon of curiousity.

I missed this earlier. Harry's conversation with He Who Walks Behind seems to indicate that Outsiders used to own this universe, if not this reality:

"This isn't your world," I whispered.
"Not now," He Who Walks Behind murmured, its smile widening. "But it will be ours again in just a little time."
-Ghost Story, page 300 on Nook. Emphasis added.

If he is to be believed, "again" means "once more," ergo Outsiders used to be here in greater numbers and were the top dogs, before something banished them. Now they're trying to get back in and back on top.

So... did they run things when mortals were here? Were they banished by mortal magic, and is that why only mortal magic can summon them? Did TWG send them packing? Are we talking about primordial soup time, or just pre-Kadesh Hittite Empire times? Do they predate the planet? Or is this a situation where the Outside and the Inside used to be one big place, and the Big Powers That Be created the multiverse with Gates to keep them out as a separate space from them?

From their description, I have zero trouble believing that they're the same set of Outsiders that were previously kicked out of reality; time is just a flat circle from the Outside, to borrow a quote from True Detective's good season, so it's not like they'd necessarily experience it linearly.

Anyway, the Outsiders' nature is very, very interesting to me. Personally, I'm waiting for Harry to call the next one Ponyboy or Sodapop.

[jonas]

Justine?

Didn't she yea when she threatened him in GP to save Thomas?

[wardenferry419]

I forgot that one.

[raidem]

This is a thread on Queen Succession Rules.  It touches on a case in which all three Queen mantles are up for grabs simultaneously. (For the past, the focus is on Summer as Mother Summer abdicated at one point which may coincide when or around the time both Mab and Titania die).  It also delves into the rules regarding when exactly the Lady mantle is destroyed by the Lady.  It coincided per Mab with the Lady "becoming a mother".  This in my view is defined as having given birth. Therefore I believe it is theoretically possible for the Lady to conceive but just not give birth and the Lady mantle remains safe. 

http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50745.0.html

The following thread is an approach where I ask people to disprove particular theories using in book text. WOJ may be used to support arguments too but should be used warily as Jim can be crafty, imprecise, mistaken or we the same etc when citing them.  The main theory to disprove that I put forward is the Murphy=Mab theory.  The other theory put forward so far is the Simon=Cowl theory.

http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50739.0.html

[raidem]

For just a fraction of a second, Maeve’s smug exterior changed, becoming graver, more somber. In that instant, she and Lily looked as though they might have been fraternal twins. “With absolute certainty.”

I'm thinking the Queen mantles are to be considered 'twins' which may allow Jim's WOJ about Mab and Titania being 'actual twin sisters' being less restrictive than thought as it comes to the possibility that Murphy may TT into the past to become a Winter Lady, and then assume the Mab mantle.  Or, same argument could be used for Molly.

(included in another thread)

[raidem]

This is a post on Reddit, not my own theory.  I ran across it and found it very interesting. It basically says that Harry has fulfilled one of the conditions of becoming Mab by giving birth to Bonnie.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/8ss4rl/dresden_and_mabs_future_series_and_cold_case/

"You? The new Summer Lady?"
Lilly flushed prettily and nodded.
"I know. I didn't want it, but when Aurora died, the power flowed to the nearest Summer vessel. Usually it would be one of the other Queens, but I had the Knight's power, and it just sort of...plopped in there."

Sooo....we know from Cold Case that at least the Winter Lady's mantle stops from getting pregnant, because she has to remain a Maiden to be the Lady. If she became a mother, she would be the Queen. We also know that the Queens' mantles can transfer to someone holding the Knight's mantle if another Queen isn't around to grab it. We ALSO know that Mab was mortal once ("I was mortal once."), so the Queen's mantle can transfer to a mortal.

I think it's safe to say that Mab is probably going to die during the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy. She's been both built up as a terrifying force and humanized, so narratively this would go a great deal towards showing the scope of the threat and creating drama.

If the Winter Queen must be a mother, and holding the Knight's mantle is enough to qualify you as a vessel, then let's consider for a moment that Harry Dresden is the Winter Knight, he has been raised and trained by Fey for most of his life, and he just gave birth. Yes, Bonnie is a spirit entity, but in the Nevernever that probably counts for more than birthing a real child. Also, being a Starborn and a powerful wizard in his own right could be the edge that the Winter Queen needs to finally tip the scales and push the invasion back.

So that's one of my predictions for the BAT. Queen Harry standing alongside the Knights of the Cross (Butters, Sanya, and Marcone) and Demonreach's denizens against the Outsiders.

[raidem]

My responses and additions supporting a potential
Harry: Queen of the Faeries.
This is my reply to the Reddit poster:

(click to show/hide)

That is an awesome theory. Congrats.
In Babylon 5, we encounter a plot line around "the One" which ends up not just one individual but three individuals. These individuals are two males and one female. So, I could see Jim (who professed watching Babylon 5 while creating the series--he named Harry DRESDEN after DRESDEN was mentioned on the show) using "the One" being a trinity that had all given birth.
So, Harry could fit the definition of Mab if really needed, as he had given birth.
I'll combine this though with my theory that Mab/Murphy exists. So perhaps there will be a set of "Mab's" that will need to work in tandem across subsets of realities where they each rule. Or, a Mab/Murphy ascends to Mother Murphy. Or we could have a 'Mab/Queen' trinity of Murphy, Harry, Molly that works in tandem.

And supporting text of a jilted Queen Harry pretending to be gay in White Knight.

(click to show/hide)

"Are you sure?" the cop asked the security guy. "Oh, absolutely," he said. "Toe-moss," he said, emphasizing the pronunciation, "is as queer as a three-dollar bill." "He have any other men here?" "Once or twice," the man said. "This tall one is new, but he does have one of the original keys." "He could have stolen it," the cop said. "An NBA-sized gay burglar who works with a dog?" the security guy replied. "We'll make sure he's not stealing the fridge when he comes out. If Raith is missing anything, we'll point him right at this guy. We've got him on video, eyewitnesses putting him in the apartment, a copy of his driver's license, for crying out loud."
"If they're in a relationship," the cop said, "how come this Raith guy never cleared his boyfriend?"
"You know how queers are, the way they sleep around," the security guy said. "He was just covering his ass." "So to speak," the cop said. Security guy missed the irony in her tone, and let out a smug chuckle. "Like I said. We'll watch him." "Do that," the cop said.
"I don't like it, but if you're sure."
"I don't want a jilted queen making a big scene. No one wants that."

(click to show/hide)

Thomas froze. His eyes widened to the size of hand mirrors. He swallowed, and the bobby pins fell out of his mouth. All the women looked back and forth between us, and there was an immediate buzz of whispers and quiet talks. "You have got to be kidding me," I said. "O-oh," Thomas said. "Ah-ree." One of the stylists glanced back and forth between us and said, "Thomas." (She pronounced it Toe-moss.) "Who isyour friend?" Friend. Oy vey. I rubbed at the bridge of my nose with one hand. I was never going to get away from this one. Not if I lived to be five hundred.

Titania's interest in getting Harry's thoughts about gay guys.

(click to show/hide)

“But this place is more than that. It is a location for . . . unapproved liaisons.” I shrugged. “It’s just you and me. I figured if you wanted to kill me, you could do it here without hurting anybody else.” Titania nodded, her expression turning thoughtful. “What think you of the men who come here to meet with one another?” “Uh,” I said, feeling somewhat off balance. “What do I think of gay guys?” “Yes.” “Boink and let boink, more or less.”
“Meaning?” “Meaning it doesn’t have a lot to do with me,” I said. “It’s none of my business what they do. I don’t go over in their living room and get my freak on with women. They don’t come over and do whatever they do with other guys at my house.” “You don’t feel that they are morally wrong to do so?” “I have no idea if it’s right or wrong,” I said. “To me, it mostly doesn’t matter.” “And why not?” “Because even if they are doing something immoral, I’d be an idiot to start criticizing them for it if I wasn’t perfect myself. Smoking is self-destructive. Drinking is self-destructive. Losing your temper and yelling at people is wrong. Lying is wrong. Cheating is wrong. Stealing is wrong. But people do that stuff all the time. Soon as I figure out how to be a perfect human being, then I’m qualified to go lecture other people about how they live their lives.”
“An odd sentiment. Are you not ‘only human’? Will you not always be imperfect?” “Now you’re catching on,” I said. “You do not see it as a sin?” I shrugged. “I think it’s a cruel world. I think it’s hard to find love. I think we should all be happy when someone manages to do it.” “Love,” Titania said. She had keyed on the word. “Is that what happens here?” “The guys who come here for anonymous sex?” I sighed. “Not so much. I think that part’s a little sad. I mean, anytime sex becomes something so . . . damned impersonal, it’s a shame. And I don’t think it’s good for them. But it’s not me they’re hurting.” “Why should that matter?” I just looked at Titania for a second. Then I said, “Because people should be free. And as long as something they want to do isn’t harming others, they should be free to do it. Obviously.”
“Is it?” Titania asked. “It would not seem to be, judging from the state of the mortal world.” “Yeah. A lot of people don’t get that,” I said. “They get caught up in right and wrong. Or right and left. But none of that stuff matters if people aren’t free.” Titania studied me intently. “Why are you asking me about that, of all things?” I asked. “Because it felt appropriate. Because my instincts told me that your answers would tell me something about you that I needed to know.”

[raidem]

“I have no use for weakness, wizard.” She shivered in a kind of slow, alien ecstasy. “Rest. Heal. Sleep. I shall most likely kill you on the morrow.” “You? A Princess Bride quote?” I croaked. “What is that?” she asked. Then she was gone. Just gone.

Mab/Murphy is to Dread Pirates Roberts as Harry is to Princess Buttercup.

One could argue that Mab/Murphy is training Harry similar to how Dread Pirates Roberts trained Westley to take over for him.  The reference to Princess Bride could further be a hint that a masked individual Mab/Murphy is in love with Harry; yet, Harry can't see his true love due to Mab's mask.


Mab with that quote is conveying multiple hints to Harry.  Yet, Harry doesn't get it.

[raidem]

Serack, can I get this moved over into the Reference Collection.  It has many of my thoughts, etc on Mab/Murphy should that ever happen.  It also has some reasonings that apply well should Mab/Molly be the case for Ms. Duck.

This is related to the WOJ's listed below: What I find interesting is the "Murphy, it's you!" thought that Jim has where he borrowed Murphy's character from Robocop where another character is behind a mask.  It leads me to further believe there will be a "Murphy, it's you!" moment where Harry finds out Murphy is some character behind a mask that got that way due to a Time Travel related plot.

WOJ's from a transcript:
When Lacuna and Toot-Toot were hanging around, do you make them a mirror of Harry and Murphy on purpose?
I didn't do it consciously, but there might have been some English Major stuff happening when I wasn't looking.

The last time Harry had a date, you put a bullet in him. Is he ever going to get out on a Saturday night?
No! Because he doesn't want a bullet in him. At this point he kind of just looks out at the world and go: "Yeah, no. That's not going to happen."

Is officer Murphy named after the officer in the Richard Scarry books?
No. Murphy was named after Murphy from Robocop. The short, cute, looks like your favorite aunt, blond girl who is like "Murphy, it's you!". I'm not sophisticated guys, when I see a character I want -- gimmie that.

Is the hit that Harry took out on himself still in effect because he survived it?
You'll have to talk to Kincaid about that. Depends what his professional ethics are like, I don't know. I'll say this, you don't know the backstory of what happened during that. I'll have to write it in as a vignette somewhere. Or I'll just write it and put in online, you guys can just read it then.

In Proven Guilty, the first time Harry encounters "Daddy Scarecrow", his arm is chopped off by Thomas' saber and hit by a van, etc. Why is he not hurt by iron?
Part of that is because of the nature of how phobo-phages work, they are not actually there. They are projecting energy into a body. When he was in Faerie, that was a different story. When they are coming over to Earth, nobody wants to drive their own car in the demolition derby. You get a junker car. That's what he's doing.

[raidem]

Murphy was in clear view of anyone when the Lady mantles were transferred, Maeve did not think she was a suitable candidate either. (otherwise she would have killed her).

One thing that stood out to me is that Maeve really never pays much attention to Murphy who is covered in dirt.  Jim mentions Maeve having to uncover them before she identifies the person and once she gets to Sarissa she stops there.  What is funny is that she mentions that Mab, the Queen of Air and Darkness, would never resort to dirtying herself to bypass the Demonreach's ward all the while with Murphy dirtied up standing right there.  In my recollection of the events on Demonreach, Maeve doesn't pay Murphy much attention except that she was grabbed to be used as bait and the generic ice handcuffs that I believe was placed on everyone.

After reviewing the excerpt of Skin Game, it appears that Maeve at least knows the dirtied up figure with "blue eyes reddened," apparently because of the mud, is at least "feisty" something we know has been associated with Murphy many times throughout the books.  I don't know for a fact that Maeve knew Murphy was in fact there, but I think it would be fairly safe to assume so but still.

To be fair to Ms. Duck's theory, Molly also stands there unseen dirtied up too.