Bob's Personality, and Justin

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There^. But I actually figured that more due to the fact of Evil Bobs existence. By existing in balance as an actual 'evil'(can't argue he's not evil when that's our accepted term for him) spirit he gives reason to cause a balance in Bob?

For Bob it's more a Nice vs Mean spectrum

Notice though, Butters didn't change Bob here, Bob changed Butters, By rubbing off bits of Dresden's magic/soul from years of warm hugs?(he is Harry's first friend by early description) Murphy tells Harry "he's been you-ing I suppose." Maybe they grew together, but Butters was influence harder overall. Course being mortal things that influence can lead to natural changes easier than just a continual influence....

Isn't this why Bob has a pact deal on his earthly domain though? His rent is his knowledge and his pay is...? bits of 'lifeness' for lack of a better term.

No, his side is just that he gets to stay in the Mortal World, which lets him Learn/grow; "Shelter in exchange for Service."

I dont see how Bob changed Butters in any particular way, aside from granting him Power, which in turn gave Butters a far more important Choice as to how to use that Power.

But Im saying that Butters did in fact Change Bob per usual.  Per WOJ he changed a whole lot less than he typically would, purely because Butters had already met the Harry-owned version, so that first impression sharply colored Butter's expectations.  So it's far more subtle that Bob v. Kemmler's nero-bob or even presumably Bob v. Justin-bob, but it's still there.  There's even a noted shift in color when the shift back happened in CD. 

2015 AMA
Why does Bob have to obey whoever owns his skull? Is it because of the enchantments on the skull, or is it just that all spiritual entities must obey whoever controls their sanctum?
It's the bargain Bob made to be who he is, basically. The skull is essentially his contract--shelter in exchange for service.

[jonas]

I dont see how Bob changed Butters in any particular way, aside from granting him Power, which in turn gave Butters a far more important Choice as to how to use that Power.

He'd been moonlighting as Bat-Dresden for a year and a half. He made him more like Dresden. From a frail scared mortician to the guy on the front line. Even from GS to SG the difference is noticeable, it was in GS the 'when I get a lightsaber' comment came up, 3 years/books later with Bob and suddenly He's the calvary for Dresden? Notice specifically from your comment, the power he gave him was knowledge of what Dresden knew and spells he used, he literally enabled him to take on the power of Dresden such as it was. Even his doubt in others(i.e. WK Harry) he got from info supplied by Bob that in effect gave him a trust issue Dresden had already possessed. Harry's Aura of magic transferred to Bob over years of close association during magical use(which is a key point, he was directly exposed to Harry's magic again and again) and genuine feelings via soul hugs and farther rubbed onto Butters over those 3 years.

No, his side is just that he gets to stay in the Mortal World, which lets him Learn/grow; "Shelter in exchange for Service."

Can you tell me by what mechanism or mechanic he's allowed to stay while Mirroring his holder? The mirror personality effect proves a connection between them.. The rest gets harder to correlate, But even without it rub off is almost certain just from the aura effect. I'm thinking it's deeper than that though. He's essentially offering advice in good faith for a dwelling here, the exchange rate is comparable to Goodman or Kringle doing good deeds to satisfy the Land Lord. He's keeping himself in the positive energy spectrum, Something Necrobob and his trickery does not do. Could he also be feeding off of their belief to make him what he is? Most probably.

Here's to Hoping Bonnie's existence will lead to closure on most of this. A new SoI is as good a reason to ask questions as a new character is for someone to be asking questions after all

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He'd been moonlighting as Bat-Dresden for a year and a half. He made him more like Dresden. From a frail scared mortician to the guy on the front line. Even from GS to SG the difference is noticeable, it was in GS the 'when I get a lightsaber' comment came up, 3 years/books later with Bob and suddenly He's the calvary for Dresden? Notice specifically from your comment, the power he gave him was knowledge of what Dresden knew and spells he used, he literally enabled him to take on the power of Dresden such as it was. Even his doubt in others(i.e. WK Harry) he got from info supplied by Bob that in effect gave him a trust issue Dresden had already possessed. Harry's Aura of magic transferred to Bob over years of close association during magical use(which is a key point, he was directly exposed to Harry's magic again and again) and genuine feelings via soul hugs and farther rubbed onto Butters over those 3 years.

I get that, the distinction I was trying to make is that Bob didnt change Butters in any fundamental way, all Bob did was give Butters more powerful Tools to use, allowing Butters to choose to be a Hero.  Bob changed Butters no more or less than any Friendship might. By contrast, simply interaction and proximity with mortals will Change Bob (capital C) in ways that things like Bob are cosmically incapable of doing on their own (hearkening back to the Free-Will distinction).

Can you tell me by what mechanism or mechanic he's allowed to stay while Mirroring his holder? The mirror personality effect proves a connection between them.. The rest gets harder to correlate, But even without it rub off is almost certain just from the aura effect. I'm thinking it's deeper than that though. He's essentially offering advice in good faith for a dwelling here, the exchange rate is comparable to Goodman or Kringle doing good deeds to satisfy the Land Lord. He's keeping himself in the positive energy spectrum, Something Necrobob and his trickery does not do. Could he also be feeding off of their belief to make him what he is? Most probably.

Here's to Hoping Bonnie's existence will lead to closure on most of this. A new SoI is as good a reason to ask questions as a new character is for someone to be asking questions after all

The closest thing to a "mechanism" is the WOJ I just posted that said sepcifically it was part of the enchantments on the Skull itself, part of the Bargain he made with Etienne the Enchanter back in medieval France. Presumably then it's not a innate trait of SoI, though given that Bonnie's Skull is most likely based on a similar design, she may have similar forces acting on her. 

[Rasins]

Notice though, Butters didn't change Bob here, Bob changed Butters, By rubbing off bits of Dresden's magic/soul from years of warm hugs?(he is Harry's first friend by early description) Murphy tells Harry "he's been you-ing I suppose." Maybe they grew together, but Butters was influence harder overall. Course being mortal things that influence can lead to natural changes easier than just a continual influence....

Since Bob has no soul, there isn't any rubbing off on.

As to Bob's personality being so similar to the Harry version of Bob and the Butter's version, Jim explained that it didn't change that much since Butters first met Bob when Bob was still Harry's.  First Impressions and all that.

[kazimmoinuddin]

I wonder if the deal bob is bound to could be augemented, that if his own primary sanctum is itself augemented and enhanced.

[jonas]

Since Bob has no soul, there isn't any rubbing off on.

As to Bob's personality being so similar to the Harry version of Bob and the Butter's version, Jim explained that it didn't change that much since Butters first met Bob when Bob was still Harry's.  First Impressions and all that.

Not true, Bob explains souls rubs off all the time, in warm feeling hugs. Harry describes Bob as his friend, Both of those are deductive premises to lead to a valid inference Bob has been largely effected by Harry. The name thing just gives it a structure to work around. Just like Belief in something is what gives it power vs the name that gives that power form. Then wizards aura's are described in miniature compared to say MW puts out, but is known to have some influence spill over, it's just considered Negligible usually. Years of close contact while Magic is actively worked around the same wizard and utilizing/tinkering with the wizards spells and enchantments him self as he does with both Harry(LC direct proof) and Bob(any SG reference) leads not only to direct contact with their magic but using it himself is a different form of magic than usual for spirits. That lead to a valid inference such things can have heavily influenced Bob.

Your first statement ignores all that seemingly? Of course we'll have to have a whole other thread for is magic, life, soul all essential the same positive energy in different levels of refinement, which I'm cool with stepping into that corner to swing it But is otherwise showing valid arguments for a theorem towards influence if not soul itself.
The second part references what we know towards it, but what we know is as always incomplete. Had not Harry actually Met Bob under Justins tutelage? An if not, is he not simply collecting a mask of identity associated with the beliefs of those who have known him just like any diety gaining multiple formative mantles? He up till it's expulsion still had Necrobob But was not known as him. He's gained more than one identity based upon 2 separate groups of people and how they've known/interacted with him. Harry and Co, And Kemmler and Cowls group.
*That's a great way to describe it, he released the 'mantle' of evil Bob he'd had, his alternate identity to become it's own thing.

So still comes back to how similar the energies that make up the various forms of life are, But i'll reference my metaphor of the human body is a distillery of soul into life(which is where we have an issue in my theorum apparently) and life distills into Emotions and feelings which are fuel for magic, are magic itself(which is proven)

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Not true, Bob explains souls rubs off all the time, in warm feeling hugs. Harry describes Bob as his friend, Both of those are deductive premises to lead to a valid inference Bob has been largely effected by Harry. The name thing just gives it a structure to work around. Just like Belief in something is what gives it power vs the name that gives that power form. Then wizards aura's are described in miniature compared to say MW puts out, but is known to have some influence spill over, it's just considered Negligible usually. Years of close contact while Magic is actively worked around the same wizard and utilizing/tinkering with the wizards spells and enchantments him self as he does with both Harry(LC direct proof) and Bob(any SG reference) leads not only to direct contact with their magic but using it himself is a different form of magic than usual for spirits. That lead to a valid inference such things can have heavily influenced Bob.

I dont think that was what he was saying.  Harry (and Souled mortals, etc) can certainly effect Bob, that's established by WOJ.  But it's one-way, Bob cannot "rub off" on a mortal in any metaphysical way (though normal social interaction is certainly there).

[jonas]

I dont think that was what he was saying.  Harry (and Souled mortals, etc) can certainly effect Bob, that's established by WOJ.  But it's one-way, Bob cannot "rub off" on a mortal in any metaphysical way (though normal social interaction is certainly there).

But Bob could act as a transference device, a vector if you will, for 'rub off' to spread from wizard to magical deity to new holder. Like being a carrier for disease but incapable of contracting the full blown version yourself.(if we wanna relate it to another thing that lacks soul but contains memories and magic of it's own causing infection/affliction of any sort includes the athema)
Possible citation in how MM Harry has become more Kemmlery in his own skills and subsequent choices?
That's two cases of individuals following the path of choices set down before then by a version of Bob. Using knowledge and power they otherwise wouldn't have had without him. Even without the magical rub the effect is still quite sufficient. It's almost like he's an instructional primer on how to, follow the guide in up in an archetype.

[Mira]

Not true, Bob explains souls rubs off all the time, in warm feeling hugs. Harry describes Bob as his friend, Both of those are deductive premises to lead to a valid inference Bob has been largely effected by Harry. The name thing just gives it a structure to work around. Just like Belief in something is what gives it power vs the name that gives that power form. Then wizards aura's are described in miniature compared to say MW puts out, but is known to have some influence spill over, it's just considered Negligible usually. Years of close contact while Magic is actively worked around the same wizard and utilizing/tinkering with the wizards spells and enchantments him self as he does with both Harry(LC direct proof) and Bob(any SG reference) leads not only to direct contact with their magic but using it himself is a different form of magic than usual for spirits. That lead to a valid inference such things can have heavily influenced Bob.

Bob isn't human so he has no soul...  I think you are confusing what Bob said about souls and soul fire because he worried Harry by telling him using soul fire uses up his soul.. He then goes on to say the hugs and stuff renew the soul, that is the human soul.

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But Bob could act as a transference device, a vector if you will, for 'rub off' to spread from wizard to magical deity to new holder. Like being a carrier for disease but incapable of contracting the full blown version yourself.(if we wanna relate it to another thing that lacks soul but contains memories and magic of it's own causing infection/affliction of any sort includes the athema)

I really dont think so, because he simply does not ever get Soul, he cannot carry it can so cannot transfer it (even assuming Soul can go viral like that past the initial transfer). 

[jonas]

Bob isn't human so he has no soul...  I think you are confusing what Bob said about souls and soul fire because he worried Harry by telling him using soul fire uses up his soul.. He then goes on to say the hugs and stuff renew the soul, that is the human soul.

AND he talks about how people swap bits of soul all the time by interaction which was why I pointed out Bob is considered Harry's long time friend. It proves an actual emotional connection for exchange of more than just magical aura, but rub off of Harry's soul itself... *cough*

I really dont think so, because he simply does not ever get Soul, he cannot carry it can so cannot transfer it (even assuming Soul can go viral like that past the initial transfer).

Magic influences, magic comes from the soul, and fuels life, life in turn regenerates soul. Seems legit? an a point that keeps being ignored... Like with Lash, the change from soul contact is basically just acquiring the will of Dresden.
Mantles have no soul but they do a helluva lot of influencing on their host, the spirit, the memories effect changes when combine with soul as the soul itself is what is capable of change. So Harry's spiritual programming of Bob, via aura, soul rub, direct contact with his magic, naming him thereby giving him a framework of identity changed his programming, ect. Which in turn effects what the next guy is going to get from said program. To quote

if both I and my brother possessed the exact same sets of data, wouldn't we come to the same conclusions?

In this case either way, Bob is that set of data, and Butters got The Dresden Cliff notes version. Causing him to literally 'go you-ing' as Dresden.

Bob's almost no different from a 'mantle' or other purely spiritual being except how the 'deal' works on housing him and where. Which of course effects the exact levels of interaction in the relationship without a 'host' but with a 'master'. Still a direct link to his owners being(that's why outside the skull he can still be commanded or made to listen to stipulations as Harry did with NecroBob) Anyone want's to refute that one... I'll make you a bet on it lol. (for Kudo's only)

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AND he talks about how people swap bits of soul all the time by interaction which was why I pointed out Bob is considered Harry's long time friend. It proves an actual emotional connection for exchange of more than just magical aura, but rub off of Harry's soul itself... *cough*Magic influences, magic comes from the soul, and fuels life, life in turn regenerates soul. Seems legit? an a point that keeps being ignored... Like with Lash, the change from soul contact is basically just acquiring the will of Dresden.
Mantles have no soul but they do a helluva lot of influencing on their host, the spirit, the memories effect changes when combine with soul as the soul itself is what is capable of change. So Harry's spiritual programming of Bob, via aura, soul rub, direct contact with his magic, naming him thereby giving him a framework of identity changed his programming, ect. Which in turn effects what the next guy is going to get from said program. To quoteIn this case either way, Bob is that set of data, and Butters got The Dresden Cliff notes version. Causing him to literally 'go you-ing' as Dresden.

Bob's almost no different from a 'mantle' or other purely spiritual being except how the 'deal' works on housing him and where. Which of course effects the exact levels of interaction in the relationship without a 'host' but with a 'master'. Still a direct link to his owners being(that's why outside the skull he can still be commanded or made to listen to stipulations as Harry did with NecroBob) Anyone want's to refute that one... I'll make you a bet on it lol. (for Kudo's only)

Im pretty sure this isnt the case, on the basis that Nemesis can Pass spirit to spirit, but it is not carried with a Mantle transfer.  Mantles are something else, though I cant say what;  I have two different theories: Mantles=Grace Shards, Mantles = Self-Sustaining Names (where a Name is 1/5th the Self along with things like Spirit and Soul, egyptian style).  Still working on reconciling the two.


But I digress.  Here's another much more mechanical reason I dont think Bob gets Soul from his friendship: That soul-swap mechanism you mentioned is the same one that provides the True Love Protections (if often less powerful than True Love), and that transfer is very specifically something that needs to be between equals, per WOJ.  They may be friends, but they have never been anything close to equals.  It's one of the noticeable differences between how Harry kept Bob (almost like a back-talking pet) and Butters that is willing to put more effort and thinks of him as a roommate rather than a magical computer/lab assistant.

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Q - your right.  I was referring to the fact that as a Spirit of Intellect, Bob has no soul, and thus cannot transfer soul.

Jonas - I understand what you are saying, but it's just not the case.  Magic does not come from the soul.  Harry only started using his soul to augment spells when he was given that power by Uriel.  Before that, it was all arcane powers.  The powers of the universe if you will.

How the two are related, we could discuss and argue forever.

Now, as to influence, Bob is like a computer.  He provides data to his current sponsor and of course that is going to help said sponsor to determine a course of action.  It is not the same as the influence that say Harry had when he ate Kavros' spirit. 

I'm not saying that Harry doesn't consider Bob to be a friend.  We all know he does.  However, it's not a lot different that someone loving their car and centering their life around said car.

[jonas]

Im pretty sure this isnt the case, on the basis that Nemesis can Pass spirit to spirit, but it is not carried with a Mantle transfer.

can ya give me some references for that inference? Cause i'm not sure what you mean.

Mantles are something else, though I cant say what;  I have two different theories: Mantles=Grace Shards, Mantles = Self-Sustaining Names (where a Name is 1/5th the Self along with things like Spirit and Soul, egyptian style).  Still working on reconciling the two.

Perhaps. And I do see merit most immortals are broken off of the same sources, but I see something else there too. Let's go ahead and make that bet if you like? The bet is, after PT i'll not have such trouble persuading ppl Bob's a mini deity

But I digress.  Here's another much more mechanical reason I dont think Bob gets Soul from his friendship: That soul-swap mechanism you mentioned is the same one that provides the True Love Protections (if often less powerful than True Love), and that transfer is very specifically something that needs to be between equals, per WOJ.  They may be friends, but they have never been anything close to equals.  It's one of the noticeable differences between how Harry kept Bob (almost like a back-talking pet) and Butters that is willing to put more effort and thinks of him as a roommate rather than a magical computer/lab assistant.

Now... that's a good point. But it's making a leap between friendship and true love I don't think is there. Unless your saying Murphy and Harry were indelibly and equally in love in SmF? I thought that comradery and other things the soul is made of beside love itself would work, since 'true love' isn't really a formative of friendship itself.
Unless your also saying the soul is equal to love, but that's like saying soul is equal to magic isn't it?

[jonas]

Q - your right.  I was referring to the fact that as a Spirit of Intellect, Bob has no soul, and thus cannot transfer soul.

And yet the atheme transferred an infection of the soul, but it has none of it's own? It gave a out a Mortal affliction.

Jonas - I understand what you are saying, but it's just not the case.  Magic does not come from the soul.  Harry only started using his soul to augment spells when he was given that power by Uriel.  Before that, it was all arcane powers.  The powers of the universe if you will.

Life comes from soul yes? Soul cannot exist independent of both life and spirit(hence why Butters soul starts fading in GS) Magic comes from Life yes? and if magic comes from life and soul grants life and living replenishes soul then I think either i'm doing a terrible job explaining this or you don't get what i'm saying. I could throw in other references of 'more of what you already are', ect. But either you get it or you don't. Positve energy is all positive energy in different forms of refinement.

How the two are related, we could discuss and argue forever.

Now, as to influence, Bob is like a computer.  He provides data to his current sponsor and of course that is going to help said sponsor to determine a course of action.  It is not the same as the influence that say Harry had when he ate Kavros' spirit. 

I'm not saying that Harry doesn't consider Bob to be a friend.  We all know he does.  However, it's not a lot different that someone loving their car and centering their life around said car.

Except the car can't give you advice based on it's programming that would then cause you to decide your course. unless you have gps...
AND You keep providing me with the limit of what we do know while ignoring any loose ends I'm tying neatly together. Kravos, let's look at that influence, Kravos took a big bite right outta Harry's chi and in effect took on not only his form but his magic. He was influenced, while not overwhelmingly, the you are what you eat came into play.. Now let's look at Bob, simply by touching the skull he takes on the persona of he who touched it, he who choses to do so. Becoming Influenced to be more like them. That action of touching the skull constitutes taking up the pact and that direct overwhelming influence shows he is actually connected directly to their core. Saying that he's leaching off his life/or soul isn't a big logical leap. Nor is the idea that the original bargain that 'let Bob be who he was' could have been formed elsewhere than a skull.