Author Topic: Bob's Personality, and Justin  (Read 21533 times)

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2017, 10:20:38 PM »
I envision Harry digging through the ashes looking for Elaine's body, finding a skull, touching it, and discovering it talks.

If he never saw Justin speaking with the skull, it's personality but would be almost entirely the imprint of Harry's teenage subconscious.

Part of my justification was that Harry wouldn't have gone back for a skull he didn't know was valuable, but now that I think about it, that's entirely possible, and might have even thought that the skull was hers, snatching it up in grief, which would be a nice bit of trauma for teenage Harry.

Though Harry still thought that Elaine had betrayed him at the time, judging from his explanation in Summer Knight. Still, it's a pretty Harry thing to do.

The thing is, Bob's wording in Dead Beat is strange.  In regards to his knowledge of Kemmler, he said, editing out Harry's parts...

To me, it sounds like he had already cut off Evil Bob at some previous occasion.  I know Bob says in Ghost Story that Evil Bob is the part he cut off because of Harry's orders in Dead Beat, but it also sounds like there could have been more out there already.  Maybe I'm reading into it too much.

I don't think you're reading into it too much at all. I don't think that Ghost Story Bob's explanation jibes well with Dead Beat, now that I think about it more. Bob says he cut off Evil Bob when Harry ordered him to in Ghost Story, and in Dead Beat says that he can only provide general information that the Wardens would have known about Kemmler, right? He then only provides broad strokes for his Kemmler rundown immediately following his encounter with Dresden.

So then how did Bob help Cowl pull off the Darkhallow? It indicates to me that the knowledge has to be there somewhere.

I generally don't like "continuity error" as an explanation, and Jim goes to great pains to avoid it. Even with five series books and four Codex Alera books in between Dead Beat and Ghost Story and accounting for natural human memory issues, I assume that it means that Bob can't fully lop off a complete part of himself. Either that or Bob cut off that part of himself later. Anyway, something's hinky about it, and it could mean that Evil Bob (or other, Evil-er Bobs) was (/were) already running (floating?) around.

Offline ntribley

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 104
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2017, 02:51:12 AM »
I personally think that Harry's giving Bob a name has had a far greater impact on Bob's personality than even Bob realizes. We've seen the importance of names with Lash and with Uriel . (With Lash, the end result was a distinct entity apart from Lasciel. With Uriel, he expressed actual fear that Harry's nickname could actually change him.) Perhaps Bob is now also defined now as a distinct personality which he didn't have before Dresden took him. I also wonder how Harry's naming the Archive Ivy is going to affect her in the future. He constantly says, "Names have power." I just don't think he really realizes what that really means.

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2017, 03:30:03 AM »
Quote from: quantus
This means that there is likely a 3rd independent chunk of Bob running around out there.  Unless Evil-bob somehow combined with the chunk previously severed, as I think Jonas was theorizing.
Errr what? Is the 3rd one the first cut off piece and bob and E bob are other two?

Well, what i'm trying to get across is something like this.
First Bob willfully(apparently) Choose to disgard not only a large chunk of who he was under kemmler, but a whole separate identity. Cause ya know, had to have a dualistic mind even under Kemmler to have had the thought separate from his Kemmler made one, Then of course he comes back.
So bob 'kills' a part of himself, and suppresses the edges connected to those supposed dead memories, which might mean very little to a spirit MADE out of necropower, out of the power of being NOT itself.
In DB when Harry asks him to access those connected portions, Bob is essentially accessing his subconscious repressed memories, his shadow. This ties into the whole subconscious shadow/mirror access for N and associates. He touched a piece of himself that opened him up for a spiritual possession by a consciousness/will entirely different from his own.... Bob just got Nemfected by Evil Bob and we all watched it happen and didn't get what it meant.
Later he cuts off that bit too. But for reasons unknown, perhaps because he was known to Harry, Perhaps because of cowl, Evil Bob didn't just go rest in peace. It all lumped together into what amounts to the ghost of Bobs past life/ shadow. His precise inversion. This could be how all such dual beings originate, i.e. fae courts. Such as it would give an in reality balance to the 'shadow' keeping Nfluencers at bay.
Quote from: ntribley
Perhaps Bob is now also defined now as a distinct personality which he didn't have before Dresden took him.
I think so, also, more than one or two wizards now know of bob and think of him as more than a magical springboard. I'm thinking Bob's basically a miniature deity as far as pure spirit is concerned. He's not a ghost after all. His identity as it is solidified the more people believe a certain thing about him or connect him to the same identity of 'bob' and effected by the skull prohibition, but harry proved the name trumps the skulls enchantments in power/significance.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 03:38:27 AM by jonas »
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline LordDresden2

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 581
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2017, 05:53:31 AM »
I’ve been puzzling over this for a little bit, and I don’t think that Bob really chose Harry in DB.  He’s a spirit of intellect, without a free will of his own, and I doubt that Bob could assert his own preference to override the hard-coded rules that define his allegiance any more than I can flap my arms and fly.

He didn't.  As long as Cowl had that skull, Bob had to help him, that's why Cowl could access Necrobob even in defiance of Harry's orders.

But when Cowl was no longer in physical possession of the skull, then Harry could try to reach out to him and win him back.  If Cowl had gotten the skull back, Bob would have reverted to Necrobob again.

Lacking mortal Free Will doesn't mean you can't have any preferences or choices about anything, ever.  It just means you can be absolutely bound to certain limits that mortals can not be.  Mab is free to prefer Harry to Lloyd as WK, for ex.  That's a choice.  A given Red Vampire might choose to prey one person over another.  That's a 'free choice'.

But mortals have greater powers of choice, and a greater meta-power to affect events by their choices.

That said...

Quote

That said...


 Rather, I suspect that this has something to do with the power of Names, and the fact that Dresden was the one who gave Bob a name.  Bob doesn’t react at all until Harry calls him by name and states that he was the one to give him one.

That surely did help Harry reach 'his' Bob, when that skull was lying on the ground, untouched by either Harry or Cowl.  It might even have endowed Bob with a hint of true free will, like Lash.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 05:55:34 AM by LordDresden2 »

Offline Zaphodess

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 975
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2017, 08:44:43 AM »
When Justin got Bob (hereafter "proto-Bob") he too was attacked by a creature whose had been "twisted" by kemmler and had to Order the SoI to Forget some and suppress other Knowledge/Memories of his time with Kemmler, just as Harry did. The only difference is that Justin actually cared about saving the secret arcane lore contained in the SoI, so his order didnt go as far as Harry's did and left the "pieces" that harry woke up in DB. 
This makes perfect sense. Justin wouldn't want to lose the knowledge permanently, so it was there, but Bob was ordered to suppress it. Harry was the one who told him to get rid of it, so Bob was free to lob it off after Dead Beat.

I envision Harry digging through the ashes looking for Elaine's body, finding a skull, touching it, and discovering it talks.

If he never saw Justin speaking with the skull, it's personality but would be almost entirely the imprint of Harry's teenage subconscious.
That's what I think too. When the Wardens came, Bob must have told Harry to hide him. Harry probably got back to get him after he left Ebenezar.

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2017, 12:11:34 PM »
Errr what? Is the 3rd one the first cut off piece and bob and E bob are other two?
Thats the theroy anyway.  Bob said in DB that he'd already purged a bunch of Kemmler-time prior to Harry.  In GS he said that Evil-bob was the result of his lopping off a chunk /after/ DB per Bob's interpretation of Harry's order. This implies two splits, so as many as three Bobs. Assuming each chunk was individually enough "mass" to survive on it's own. 
Quote
Well, what i'm trying to get across is something like this.
First Bob willfully(apparently) Choose to disgard not only a large chunk of who he was under kemmler, but a whole separate identity. Cause ya know, had to have a dualistic mind even under Kemmler to have had the thought separate from his Kemmler made one, Then of course he comes back.
Chose, "or was compelled to." per Bob. Minor nitpick, carry on :)

Quote
So bob 'kills' a part of himself, and suppresses the edges connected to those supposed dead memories, which might mean very little to a spirit MADE out of necropower, out of the power of being NOT itself.
In DB when Harry asks him to access those connected portions, Bob is essentially accessing his subconscious repressed memories, his shadow. This ties into the whole subconscious shadow/mirror access for N and associates. He touched a piece of himself that opened him up for a spiritual possession by a consciousness/will entirely different from his own.... Bob just got Nemfected by Evil Bob and we all watched it happen and didn't get what it meant.

Later he cuts off that bit too. But for reasons unknown, perhaps because he was known to Harry, Perhaps because of cowl, Evil Bob didn't just go rest in peace. It all lumped together into what amounts to the ghost of Bobs past life/ shadow. His precise inversion. This could be how all such dual beings originate, i.e. fae courts. Such as it would give an in reality balance to the 'shadow' keeping Nfluencers at bay. I think so, also, more than one or two wizards now know of bob and think of him as more than a magical springboard. I'm thinking Bob's basically a miniature deity as far as pure spirit is concerned. He's not a ghost after all. His identity as it is solidified the more people believe a certain thing about him or connect him to the same identity of 'bob' and effected by the skull prohibition, but harry proved the name trumps the skulls enchantments in power/significance.
Hmm, interesting theory.  Not sure I buy the Nemfection connection just yet, but Im open to the possibility.  For now it just seems odd that (if Im hearing you) Bob was carrying around a Dormnant Nemfection vector for some years and Harry "woke it up"? No argument against it, mostly since we have very little idea of how Nemesis works, though we've been promised more explanation eventually. 

One side thing that may or may not affect your overall theory, but it's a string Id like to pull:  I never considered Bob a"being of pure necromancy" in any of his incarnations.  If pushed Id probably have said he was a being of normal Magic and so Life by definition, if NN spirit Energy more than actual Native Life.  But he clearing has/had some capability to manipulate Necromantic energy....I odnt know man, I may have to go back to the taxonomic drawing board on Spirits. 

<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2017, 01:59:21 PM »
Quote
I never considered Bob a"being of pure necromancy" in any of his incarnations.  If pushed Id probably have said he was a being of normal Magic and so Life by definition, if NN spirit Energy more than actual Native Life.  But he clearing has/had some capability to manipulate Necromantic energy....I odnt know man, I may have to go back to the taxonomic drawing board on Spirits.
From what Bob explains Kemmler did to him and E Bob actually using Necromancy, he seems to run off of the different energy? That's always been part of what I assumed so screwed with Bob's sensibilities vs what he was as Kemmler's pet. Even the way Bob's eyes are portrayed to change, because he might not have a soul, but he has an internal energy. E Bob actually uses Necro energy against Harry directly. Only way to do that is to have access to it. Normally, i'd agree with you completely about him being a being of positive magic, but that's why I see the contrast with Evil Bob.
Quote
Bob was carrying around a Dormnant Nemfection vector for some years and Harry "woke it up"?
Sort of yes. More like he made it when he killed a piece of himself and later opened the way back(beacon stye, which is just a form of thaumaturgy really) by accessing a part of himself that was just like it. He, a 'living' spirit, accidently allowed himself to be possessed by an 'undead' spirit. if that doesn't make it sound more complicated lol. Basing it off of the fae being spirits of elements, things in the real world vs the GS supposition spirits that used to be aren't supposed to mess around with reality. There's something there, a thread to pull at to take your favorite phrase lol. Something that wraps up a lot of little things in the fae being partially of this world vs say... a purely manifested Demon Or creature of undeath. Demons can't die here because they don't 'live' here, like the need to chase Agatha to her own domain in GP. Also why Walkers are unkillable I think, they're not from here, they don't use rules of the living. But they might be using rules of the dead? the imprint of what used to be echoing across creation itself? all those Old Gods, literally the Old Gods are still remembered by the universe, still have an imprint to fill up. Hwwb4 and his 'deeper' but not bigger than Mab reference is a good example of necro keyed words applied directly to outsiders.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2017, 02:20:29 PM »
From what Bob explains Kemmler did to him and E Bob actually using Necromancy, he seems to run off of the different energy? That's always been part of what I assumed so screwed with Bob's sensibilities vs what he was as Kemmler's pet. Even the way Bob's eyes are portrayed to change, because he might not have a soul, but he has an internal energy. E Bob actually uses Necro energy against Harry directly. Only way to do that is to have access to it. Normally, i'd agree with you completely about him being a being of positive magic, but that's why I see the contrast with Evil Bob.
Im more thinking that I have to separate my idea of magical energy from Spirits themselves.  Which admittedly are made of a variety of things, but in the case of both SoI and Ghosts that's basically just Memories.  Im thinking now that Spirits are perpendicular to the Chi/Necromancy spectrum, that they can use and manipulate both just like wizards can. 

Quote
Sort of yes. More like he made it when he killed a piece of himself and later opened the way back(beacon stye, which is just a form of thaumaturgy really) by accessing a part of himself that was just like it. He, a 'living' spirit, accidently allowed himself to be possessed by an 'undead' spirit. if that doesn't make it sound more complicated lol.
Ok I can get behind that, as you say it should/could easily act as a thaumaturgic beacon.  My only followup question is whether you think the missing piece found bob as soo as harry woke up the suppressed bits (ie happened in the basement) or if it only happened later on after Cowl got his hands on Bob and needed the full memory of the Word/Darkhallow?  There's a lot of interaction with Bob after NecroBob's first appearance that doesnt make any hint of a possessing spirit or change in Nature.   
Quote
Basing it off of the fae being spirits of elements, things in the real world vs the GS supposition spirits that used to be aren't supposed to mess around with reality. There's something there, a thread to pull at to take your favorite phrase lol. Something that wraps up a lot of little things in the fae being partially of this world vs say... a purely manifested Demon Or creature of undeath. Demons can't die here because they don't 'live' here, like the need to chase Agatha to her own domain in GP. Also why Walkers are unkillable I think, they're not from here, they don't use rules of the living. But they might be using rules of the dead? the imprint of what used to be echoing across creation itself? all those Old Gods, literally the Old Gods are still remembered by the universe, still have an imprint to fill up. Hwwb4 and his 'deeper' but not bigger than Mab reference is a good example of necro keyed words applied directly to outsiders.
I dont think so in several places (mostly competing theories rather than actual counter-proof), Ill try to got through them:

1)It was only ghosts that arent supposed to mess around with reality, and even that is only Mort's opinion (Uriel seems to think otherwise, based on his recruiting efforts), so I dont think it applies to other types of more pure Spirits like Bob (ie. always was a spirit as opposed to a remnant ghost). 

2)I think Walkers are "deeper" than the likes of Mab because they are not subject to the branching of the Multiverse, that there is only One of each.  Some have suggested the same of angels, etc.

3)While I do think that Black Magic taint is Outsider related and so is tangentially connected to Necromancy, I dont think Necromantic Energy itself is from the Outside; it's just the flip-side negative of an existing "positive" energy. It's in the same boat as Cold, Vacuum, etc. It's a Power defined by Absence. 
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2017, 02:59:04 PM »

2)I think Walkers are "deeper" than the likes of Mab because they are not subject to the branching of the Multiverse, that there is only One of each.  Some have suggested the same of angels, etc.

I haven't heard this before (I lurk a lot more than I post), and I think this is kind of brilliant. It can open up wider story potential for Mirror, Mirror, too.

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2017, 03:20:47 PM »
Im more thinking that I have to separate my idea of magical energy from Spirits themselves.  Which admittedly are made of a variety of things, but in the case of both SoI and Ghosts that's basically just Memories.  Im thinking now that Spirits are perpendicular to the Chi/Necromancy spectrum, that they can use and manipulate both just like wizards can.
You put chi in the same boat as necromancy o.O? Haa *clears throat* uhh, why/how? Might be an overall view on our perceptions of magic being different. But pulling it full circle with how I see Bob and his choice, how i'm starting to see everything with this 'choice' thing broken down. Everytime a wizard uses Magic or necromancy, he's doing a very small impression of rising and falling on the mortal level. Soulfire vs Hellfire, Magic vs Necromancy? When angels do it they're basically changing their food/fuel, the angel we've met runs on positive soul stuff, the Denarian fallen are largely seen to run off of the fear and chaos they create with their host's. So this stark contrast o positive forces vs negative forces I've looked at as "how does it apply across the DF? where is the toggle/choice back and forth?"
Quote
Ok I can get behind that, as you say it should/could easily act as a thaumaturgic beacon.  My only followup question is whether you think the missing piece found bob as soo as harry woke up the suppressed bits (ie happened in the basement) or if it only happened later on after Cowl got his hands on Bob and needed the full memory of the Word/Darkhallow?  There's a lot of interaction with Bob after NecroBob's first appearance that doesnt make any hint of a possessing spirit or change in Nature.
That's a fair question, and is probably as hard to say as, Is Cat Sith under N's control before or only after harry outs him and Makes N takes him entirely? I'd say, Necro bob still existed in part in Bob, but as soon as he manifested, Evil Bob was there, if only as a fly on the wall/whisper. 
Quote
   I dont think so in several places (mostly competing theories rather than actual counter-proof), Ill try to got through them:

1)It was only ghosts that arent supposed to mess around with reality, and even that is only Mort's opinion (Uriel seems to think otherwise, based on his recruiting efforts), so I dont think it applies to other types of more pure Spirits like Bob (ie. always was a spirit as opposed to a remnant ghost). 

2)I think Walkers are "deeper" than the likes of Mab because they are not subject to the branching of the Multiverse, that there is only One of each.  Some have suggested the same of angels, etc.

3)While I do think that Black Magic taint is Outsider related and so is tangentially connected to Necromancy, I dont think Necromantic Energy itself is from the Outside; it's just the flip-side negative of an existing "positive" energy. It's in the same boat as Cold, Vacuum, etc. It's a Power defined by Absence.
1It doesn't apply to Bob, but that's my point, bob is a 'living' spirit in so much as he has some basis here, air elemental if nothing else. But not everything has a foothold here in reality. Here it get's harder to define, because early in the series demons were closer to outsider than later on it seems, so the idea behind it mutated slightly. Now it's a bit more complex with Goodman's proposed rent. Have to come back to this one I think...
2 Ah, but Uriel is just plain Bigger, upon bigger and BIGGER! lol. He can destroy whole galaxies.
Looking back at my idea Bob killed a piece of himself, I think angels are the complete opposite. Instead of Breaking down part of their identity or only manifesting inside reality in part, they are a mask/bearer of the entire power of an immortal. N can't get them in their 'whole' state because their already all their. all the pieces. Going on the Grand Cosmology make up,
A. There is only one of all outside/ immortals
B. Such whole beings are broken down inside reality into smaller mantles/identities
C. All smaller Identities are subject to the connections to their unborn parts. Nemfection, as the alloy of their nature changes with the bigger source.
So Hwwb4, Fearbringer, Nemesis itself, is all a result of parts of mostly the fae courts whose pieces were killed but not reincorporated.
I feel I did a really bad job explaining that one :*( let me know?

3That's what outside is to me, th opposite of existence but defined in spirit because of the way DF mechanics work. Outside is the very idea of being not, of not existing manifest(yea, humans cause it now lol). The connection there is those idea's start connecting to others, things that are not, things that used to be, Oblivion itself. It's an example of the power that exists OUT there just as Mordite is an example of matter that doesn't exist.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Rasins

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 12188
  • Aid the younger and weaker.
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2017, 05:29:20 PM »
I think it's far simpler than what you all have developed here.

When Harry pulled Bob from the ashes of Justin's place, I think he was whole.  However, Harry's personality just isn't compatible with that of Kemmler's Bob.

I think this gave Bob the ability to wall off that portion of himself. 

This is why Bob was so unwilling to give Harry what he "Knew" about Kemmler, but when ordered to do so, he did. I think the two incompatible personalities were represented by the cloud of random lights vs the ordered sphere.

When Harry told Bob to Never access those memories again, he walled them off again.  But when Cowl ordered Bob to give him the information he needed for the DarkHallow, Bob realized that just walling it off wasn't enough.  Not long after Harry recovered Bob is when Bob lopped off that portion of himself that became EB.
At times I wish I had a clone, but then I realize, I could never live with that a-hole.

DV Rasins 2006 BK+++ RP++ JB++++ TH++++ WG+(+?) CL SW++ BC- MC---

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2017, 05:40:01 PM »
I think it's far simpler than what you all have developed here.

When Harry pulled Bob from the ashes of Justin's place, I think he was whole.  However, Harry's personality just isn't compatible with that of Kemmler's Bob.

I think this gave Bob the ability to wall off that portion of himself. 

This is why Bob was so unwilling to give Harry what he "Knew" about Kemmler, but when ordered to do so, he did. I think the two incompatible personalities were represented by the cloud of random lights vs the ordered sphere.

When Harry told Bob to Never access those memories again, he walled them off again.  But when Cowl ordered Bob to give him the information he needed for the DarkHallow, Bob realized that just walling it off wasn't enough.  Not long after Harry recovered Bob is when Bob lopped off that portion of himself that became EB.
wow, I actually really like the idea that it was a fundamental incompatibility once Harry got the Skull, it's an oddly graceful mechanism.  Not sure I believe it over my pre-existing theory of Justin acting out of self-preservation yet, but I like it none the less.

I have one issue with the overall as described: Bob very clearly makes a distinction between parts Walled Off and parts Cut Off in DB, he said he'd done both prior to Necro-bob being released .  That doesnt run afoul of your theory, and it explains the line where he actually said "Because I didn't want to be like that" which is the closest he's ever come to a moral Choice that I can think of.  That always stuck out to me, but it makes sense being the sort of inherited morality that he gets from his Owner (ever notice he's more altruistic with Butters?). 

Fwiw, it would also imply is that Necro-bob, the uber-loyal kemmlerite part, did not have any similar incompatibility with Justin, fwiw.  Do we actually know if Justin got any /use/ out of Bob?  Necrobob sure seemed intent on getting back to Kemmler, specifically. 
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline Rasins

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 12188
  • Aid the younger and weaker.
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2017, 06:09:00 PM »
wow, I actually really like the idea that it was a fundamental incompatibility once Harry got the Skull, it's an oddly graceful mechanism.  Not sure I believe it over my pre-existing theory of Justin acting out of self-preservation yet, but I like it none the less.
Thanks.  I have my moments.

Quote
I have one issue with the overall as described: Bob very clearly makes a distinction between parts Walled Off and parts Cut Off in DB, he said he'd done both prior to Necro-bob being released .  That doesnt run afoul of your theory, and it explains the line where he actually said "Because I didn't want to be like that" which is the closest he's ever come to a moral Choice that I can think of.  That always stuck out to me, but it makes sense being the sort of inherited morality that he gets from his Owner (ever notice he's more altruistic with Butters?). 
I always thought this was because Butters actually appreciates Butter's Genius.  But it makes sense both ways.

[/quote]
Fwiw, it would also imply is that Necro-bob, the uber-loyal kemmlerite part, did not have any similar incompatibility with Justin, fwiw.  Do we actually know if Justin got any /use/ out of Bob?  Necrobob sure seemed intent on getting back to Kemmler, specifically.
[/quote]

No.  All we really have is Harry's memory of him and I don't even recall the story of Harry pulling Bob after the Fire.
At times I wish I had a clone, but then I realize, I could never live with that a-hole.

DV Rasins 2006 BK+++ RP++ JB++++ TH++++ WG+(+?) CL SW++ BC- MC---

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2017, 07:02:29 PM »

No.  All we really have is Harry's memory of him and I don't even recall the story of Harry pulling Bob after the Fire.
hmmm., I thought I recalled Bob talking about their time together at one point, in the context of him acting as Lab assistant or apprentice trainer or something. 
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2017, 07:40:55 PM »
I think it's far simpler than what you all have developed here.

When Harry pulled Bob from the ashes of Justin's place, I think he was whole.  However, Harry's personality just isn't compatible with that of Kemmler's Bob.

I think this gave Bob the ability to wall off that portion of himself. 

This is why Bob was so unwilling to give Harry what he "Knew" about Kemmler, but when ordered to do so, he did. I think the two incompatible personalities were represented by the cloud of random lights vs the ordered sphere.

When Harry told Bob to Never access those memories again, he walled them off again.  But when Cowl ordered Bob to give him the information he needed for the DarkHallow, Bob realized that just walling it off wasn't enough.  Not long after Harry recovered Bob is when Bob lopped off that portion of himself that became EB.
Not bad on theory, but it requires us to buy into a mechanic never presented, incompatibility of personalities. Bob's personality itself didn't change much from when Harry first met him to Butters, He's still very boob oriented. His associated... not personality, that's not the word... belief system changed slightly later on as mentioned
Quote from: quantus
but it makes sense being the sort of inherited morality that he gets from his Owner (ever notice he's more altruistic with Butters?).
There^. But I actually figured that more due to the fact of Evil Bobs existence. By existing in balance as an actual 'evil'(can't argue he's not evil when that's our accepted term for him) spirit he gives reason to cause a balance in Bob?
Notice though, Butters didn't change Bob here, Bob changed Butters, By rubbing off bits of Dresden's magic/soul from years of warm hugs?(he is Harry's first friend by early description) Murphy tells Harry "he's been you-ing I suppose." Maybe they grew together, but Butters was influence harder overall. Course being mortal things that influence can lead to natural changes easier than just a continual influence....
Isn't this why Bob has a pact deal on his earthly domain though? His rent is his knowledge and his pay is...? bits of 'lifeness' for lack of a better term.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.