Author Topic: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)  (Read 86175 times)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #300 on: September 02, 2017, 05:38:34 AM »
Still wondering why people accept Nicodemus word as proof for anything....
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Offline forumghost

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #301 on: September 02, 2017, 05:42:33 AM »
Because Harry's brain-matter isn't decorating the sidewalk outside of the Carpenter residence? If he'd wanted to kill him, he'd have done it as soon as he was finished with Murphy.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 05:57:20 AM by forumghost »

Offline Arjan

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #302 on: September 02, 2017, 07:30:19 AM »
Because Harry's brain-matter isn't decorating the sidewalk outside of the Carpenter residence? If he'd wanted to kill him, he'd have done it as soon as he was finished with Murphy.
So nicodemus had a good reason not to. No reason to believe it was the reason he stated.
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Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #303 on: September 02, 2017, 07:34:03 AM »
No, I am going with Nic's stated mission since Small Favor, the reason Harry first dangled Fid in the first place to trade for Ivy and Marcone.  The whole reason Harry dangled the Sword, he knew Nic wanted it to unmake it.. Duh...  Denarians want to break Holy Swords, they and the Knights that wield them are their enemy.. What is the one thing that strikes more terror in a Nicklehead than anything else?  A Holy Sword shining brightly in the hands of a Knight...  Nic isn't afraid of Michael without his Sword, but put Am in his hands and Nic shits his pants..

So Nic isn't lying he is bragging on how clever he was setting up Murphy and Harry with the unwitting aid of Butters to accomplish his goal..  He lies about a lot of things true, but not about this, breaking Swords is his goal, planning to accomplish that is his business, and this time out he won, if only for a little while.. At that point in time, Fid was shattered on the sidewalk, useless..

Your mistake is thinking since Nic lies, everything he says is a lie, however it is a lot more complicated than that...

I can't believe that we are arguing about Nicodemous's credibility. That is why I call this lunacy. It is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that Nick can lie and he did lie, a freaking lot, not all the time but the next best thing to it. "I know the value of your words and you know the value of mine". This phrase first used by shiro is proof enough. Nick is a lying cheating bastard, because JB design him as a complete nemesis to Michael's character. Arguing about this is pointless.

All I want to say is this. Had Nicodemous say something and he is the only sorce of information and with the absence of any other contrary proof, taking his words as truth is reasonable. No matter how you put it, the guy is still a character in the story, and his words are still text evidence. When he say that Harry is afraid of power during book 5, I take that statement as truth just fine. Why? Because nothing is going against that statement and Harry even somewhat agrees which further support the statement.

But taking Nicodemous's words as credible evidence, when there is at least 3 other characters who's words and actions contradicts Nicodemous's statement and under the condition where these 3 character are all reputable characters, that is a choice only made by crazy lunatics.
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    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline forumghost

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #304 on: September 02, 2017, 07:37:06 AM »
So nicodemus had a good reason not to. No reason to believe it was the reason he stated.

He had reasons to keep Harry alive- ergo, he wasn't going to kill him, ergo he was bluffing Murphy to get her to break Fid.

The exact reasons for keeping Harry alive aren't exactly relevant to that chain of logic.

Nick is an asshole, a liar, and a murderous, murdering, murderer. Obviously we need to analyze his action carefully- he's not the sort you trust as far as you can kick after all.

But I genuinely don't think he intended to kill Harry then. If for no other reason then the fact that it's 99% guaranteed that Mab is watching over his shoulder looking for an excuse to shank him right now, and so he wants to wait until he's somewhere she can't intervene (Hades)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 07:41:26 AM by forumghost »

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #305 on: September 02, 2017, 07:39:43 AM »
Because Harry's brain-matter isn't decorating the sidewalk outside of the Carpenter residence? If he'd wanted to kill him, he'd have done it as soon as he was finished with Murphy.

Nicodemous himself might want to argue otherwise, but at the end of the day the guy iss till just a human. Heck, even a supreme spiritual being with near absolute purpose, like Mab, sometimes goes astray under certain stimulation, as we seen during book 14.

The guy just manage to destroy fid, permanently so he presumes. One of his eternal foe is just vanquished, pardon  him some time to gloat and celebrate. Nick probably can't help himself.

By the time he pull himself toghether and was about to actually kill Harry, Michael come up and offer him a tastier bait.
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #306 on: September 02, 2017, 11:15:23 AM »
He had reasons to keep Harry alive- ergo, he wasn't going to kill him, ergo he was bluffing Murphy to get her to break Fid.

The exact reasons for keeping Harry alive aren't exactly relevant to that chain of logic.

Nick is an asshole, a liar, and a murderous, murdering, murderer. Obviously we need to analyze his action carefully- he's not the sort you trust as far as you can kick after all.

But I genuinely don't think he intended to kill Harry then. If for no other reason then the fact that it's 99% guaranteed that Mab is watching over his shoulder looking for an excuse to shank him right now, and so he wants to wait until he's somewhere she can't intervene (Hades)

Exactly,  yes, he'd love to see Harry dead, but not at that moment, he had need of him.  Yes, Mab was watching... However when Murphy announced openly her feelings about the Holy Knights and their duty and chose to conceal Sword to take with.... Nic isn't one to let an excellent chance to break a Sword go to waste...  So the set up..  We can all agree that Nic is an asshole and a liar, but he wasn't lying about that little bit..
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Nicodemous himself might want to argue otherwise, but at the end of the day the guy iss till just a human. Heck, even a supreme spiritual being with near absolute purpose, like Mab, sometimes goes astray under certain stimulation, as we seen during book 14.

The guy just manage to destroy fid, permanently so he presumes. One of his eternal foe is just vanquished, pardon  him some time to gloat and celebrate. Nick probably can't help himself.

By the time he pull himself toghether and was about to actually kill Harry, Michael come up and offer him a tastier bait.
That too...

Offline peregrine

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #307 on: September 02, 2017, 12:29:11 PM »
If Nic is as all knowing as he's supposed to be, he should know that Fid was never truly broken.  Bianca et al. were going to kill an innocent to unmake the sword, after Harry did the same thing Murphy did.  Nic just smashed the blade.  All he did was take it out of commission until such time as a new blade can be reforged, like has been done several times over with two of the three.

Basically, the miracle of faith that Butters did was getting it to work without the metal, not ununmaking it.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #308 on: September 02, 2017, 12:38:42 PM »
He had reasons to keep Harry alive- ergo, he wasn't going to kill him, ergo he was bluffing Murphy to get her to break Fid.
The exact reasons for keeping Harry alive aren't exactly relevant to that chain of logic.
We know that Nicodemus wants to kill Harry so his reasons not to are always context sensitive and because so it is extremely important to know those reasons because context can change quite rapidly.

Before Karen took the sword is quite different from after and is different from after Michaels offer.

Things like how would Mab interpret the situation, do I have a chance to get something better and how wonderful I feel gloating now all have influence on his decision to kill or not kill Harry.

Quote
Nick is an asshole, a liar, and a murderous, murdering, murderer. Obviously we need to analyze his action carefully- he's not the sort you trust as far as you can kick after all.

But I genuinely don't think he intended to kill Harry then. If for no other reason then the fact that it's 99% guaranteed that Mab is watching over his shoulder looking for an excuse to shank him right now, and so he wants to wait until he's somewhere she can't intervene (Hades)
It all depends on the situation. Harry and Butters actions freed him of one concern, Mab's retaliation. Karen offerd him a more tempting opportunity but without Karens intervention Nicodemus had to do something because he could not let Harry get away with it either.

That something might well have been killing Harry.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #309 on: September 02, 2017, 12:39:43 PM »
Mira, are you seriously arguing that the entire chase was just to get Murphy to break the Sword?

That Nicodemus would not have chased or wanted Butters dead if Murphy didn't have the Sword?

Is that what you're saying? Because that makes no sense.
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Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #310 on: September 02, 2017, 01:12:38 PM »
Mira, are you seriously arguing that the entire chase was just to get Murphy to break the Sword?

That Nicodemus would not have chased or wanted Butters dead if Murphy didn't have the Sword?

Is that what you're saying? Because that makes no sense.

It makes sense if Nicodemous suddenly shave his head and become a merciful vegetarian monk.

It makes sense, if Butters is a big coward, who jump at shadows because he is running away from a danger that truly does not exist.

It make sense, if Bob suddenly lost all his faculties and fail to judge the situation correctly.

It make sense, if Harry is an idiot who has absolutely no understanding about how fae deals work, because if Butters is not truly in danger, Harry is doing all those things, risking breaking the deal,  for nothing. He could just sit back and Butters won't die at all.

It make sense, if Michael, a former KoTC, someone who probably understand Denarians the most and someone that is gifted with the knack to tell the truth, completely fail to read the situation and attempt to sacrifice himself to save someone who is not truly in danger at all.

Heck, even Uriel is fooled. The archangel risk his grace for nothing. Uriel could just told Michael that Nick can't kill Harry. Surely such a simple thing is no worse then bequeathing his grace entirely. In fact, Harry can tell Michael this truth, so does Butters and Bob. But all of them keep quiet, so it means all of them are ignorant.

I don't need to mention Murphy, because clearly in the eyes of some people, Murphy's judgements and words  cannot be trusted.

It is truly only by the grace of TWG and lady fortuna that this bunch of idiots can defeat Nicodemous in his own game and save the day. Mab must be insane to allow a knight who is so ignorant on the mechanics of fae deals to cross wits with Nicodemous, so Mab is an idiot too.

Everyone is a fool, only Nick is clever. He knows everything. He predicted everything with near pin point accuracy. He need to tell Harry right to his face that it is all a ploy, before Harry could even begin to understand.

Harry's victory over Nicodemous might as well be deus ex machina.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 01:20:36 PM by huangjimmy108 »
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #311 on: September 02, 2017, 01:18:53 PM »
Don't forget that Nicodemus is obviously telling the 100% unvarnished truth when he says it was a ploy, but was absolutely 100% lying when he says he wasn't sure the Sword was going to be in play.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #312 on: September 02, 2017, 01:55:57 PM »
It all makes sense if you accept everyone is an idiot. Except Nicodemus of course.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #313 on: September 02, 2017, 05:16:29 PM »
If Nic is as all knowing as he's supposed to be, he should know that Fid was never truly broken.  Bianca et al. were going to kill an innocent to unmake the sword, after Harry did the same thing Murphy did.  Nic just smashed the blade.  All he did was take it out of commission until such time as a new blade can be reforged, like has been done several times over with two of the three.

Basically, the miracle of faith that Butters did was getting it to work without the metal, not ununmaking it.

He may, but at the same time it isn't always clear how soon one can be put back together, if ever.. Actually Harry didn't do the same thing that Murphy did..  He didn't pretend to judge Lea, he didn't damn her, she hadn't surrendered, and I guess technically she has no soul if she is full Fae.. He did misuse the Sword, but he also didn't know the rules, so it merely didn't allow itself to be misused... So it fell out of his hands and Lea picked it up to trade at Bianca's place.  Since an innocent being sacrificed with it was avoided, Am was never unmade...  Murphy on the other hand knew better, sat in judgement, said, "damn you," and tried to execute a Denarian who had surrendered, HUGE NO,NO.. So the Sword broke.. No the miracle of faith was Harry tossing the hilt in the direction of Charity and Butters in hopes that even the hilt could be of use against the Denarian attack, which it was..  The irony here is at the beginning of the book and in Cold Days as well, Murphy questions Harry's lack of faith compared to her own....  Her lack of faith got it broken, his faith got it remade.
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It make sense, if Harry is an idiot who has absolutely no understanding about how fae deals work, because if Butters is not truly in danger, Harry is doing all those things, risking breaking the deal,  for nothing. He could just sit back and Butters won't die at all.

That very well could be what ended up happening.. Think about it, until he became a Holy Knight Butters is really nothing to Nic, but Nic knows he means something to Harry...  Yeah, he could have gone ahead and killed Harry for refusing to kill Butters, but that would mess up his deal with Mab..  Nic's main goal was the contents of the vault, breaking the Sword was a bonus.. And yes, Harry is an idiot about how the Fae work a deal even if he should know better by now...  He cannot hold a candle to Mab in slippery critical thinking..
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Heck, even Uriel is fooled. The archangel risk his grace for nothing. Uriel could just told Michael that Nick can't kill Harry. Surely such a simple thing is no worse then bequeathing his grace entirely. In fact, Harry can tell Michael this truth, so does Butters and Bob. But all of them keep quiet, so it means all of them are ignorant.
Don't over work it, sure Nic can kill Harry, but he needed the mission run first, then he could kill him... Timing is everything, and Nic did try to kill him, Michael and his little dog too once the mission was complete.
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I don't need to mention Murphy, because clearly in the eyes of some people, Murphy's judgements and words  cannot be trusted.

Again, don't over work it, her judgement is sound most of the time, but in this case it wasn't.
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It is truly only by the grace of TWG and lady fortuna that this bunch of idiots can defeat Nicodemous in his own game and save the day. Mab must be insane to allow a knight who is so ignorant on the mechanics of fae deals to cross wits with Nicodemous, so Mab is an idiot too.
She might be insane, for that matter she frequently points out to Harry how ignorant he is on the finer points of Fae deals.. Harry had to admit to it as well after the Sword was broken and he finally worked out how Nic set everything up and waltzed though the loop holes so the deal wasn't violated. And it was by the grace of the Almighty and an archangel that the idiots did defeat Nic..
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Everyone is a fool, only Nick is clever. He knows everything. He predicted everything with near pin point accuracy. He need to tell Harry right to his face that it is all a ploy, before Harry could even begin to understand.
Nic is clever, and in the case of what happened in front of Michael's house, he enjoyed rubbing Harry's nose in it, very smug indeed.  Even Harry had to admit Nic was very clever in this action.. But Nic blows it as well, oh he ended up with the Grail, but Harry made out like a bandit..
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Harry's victory over Nicodemous might as well be deus ex machina.

In a way, and will continue to be until Nic is either killed or gives up his coin and noose for an attempt at sincere redemption..   Marcone and Mab's revenge many have brought him low, but he isn't out, he will return and Harry will match wits and fight him all over again.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 05:33:34 PM by Mira »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #314 on: September 02, 2017, 05:18:04 PM »
That very well could be what ended up happening.. Think about it, until he became a Holy Knight Butters is really nothing to Nic, but Nic knows he means something to Harry...  Yeah, he could have gone ahead and killed Harry for refusing to kill Butters, but that would mess up his deal with Mab..  Nic's main goal was the contents of the vault, breaking the Sword was a bonus.. And yes, Harry is an idiot about how the Fae work a deal even if he should know better by now...  He cannot hold a candle to Mab in slippery critical thinking..
Except for the whole thing about Butters spying on Nicodemus's meeting and thus being a security risk for the extremely sensitive heist that Nicodemus is planning.

You seem to be forgetting about that part.

Even though Nicodemus said it explicitly.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

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Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast