Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)

[jonas]

Oh, they've noticed it, they just don't understand what it is that they're seeing.  It's being chalked up to crime waves, gang violence, etc.

Like when the Red court fell nd it being blamed on a change In turf war. The night of bad dreams though... I've always wondered the why of that one? Anyone got any pressing idea's?

[peregrine]

Side effect of the massive amount of energy dumped out all at once.

[TheCuriousFan]

Smaug,

In this summoning, you do need to name them.

Oh Serack and Schecky, please enlighten us.

Here you go.

Tom: Joshua wanted to know, "in the Dresden universe, an ongoing theme is that most mortals do not believe in magic. One of the few exceptions is the Chicago Special Investigations unit. Are there other governmental groups out there who are clued in? As an example FBI, KGB, NYPD, et cetera. Do they have their own versions of Special Investigations, and if so, would we ever see them in the course of the novels?"

Jim: It was Joshua, you said, right?

Tom: Yes, Joshua asked that question, correct.

Jim: Joshua, if you go back, a detail that a lot of readers have forgotten is the end of Fool Moon where Susan Rodriguez, the reporter, actually got on videotape the werewolf and the big closing fight scene at the end. And then the videotape disappeared and most people kind of forget that the videotape just sort of disappeared. They just sort of put it down to oh, that's random background stuff. It's not random background stuff. Somebody made it disappear, and yes, there are people like that that exist and the difference is that most of them assume that anybody involved with the supernatural is the bad guy, they don't make contact. Not only is Dresden the exception because he's reaching across the aisle, so to speak to work with Murphy, but Murphy's the exception because she's reaching out to work with Dresden. There's something more going on there but the only side of the story we get to see is Harry's side of the story.

[Mr. Death]

Oh, they've noticed it, they just don't understand what it is that they're seeing.  It's being chalked up to crime waves, gang violence, etc.

Fair enough, but explosions would be bumped up the rank to "terrorism," which would get feds involved, and none of the parties involved want that.

[Mr. Death]

Mr. Death,

Great answers; love your reasoning.  I agree with a good amount of what you said above.  I want to keep this a bit short, as I can’t keep writing gigantic essays.  But I do want to say this for Karrin:  assuming that my WAG isn’t correct and she isn’t being somehow subtly influenced by something else, I think that she’s a pretty amazing character.  She’s human, like everyone else, and makes some mistakes, but every single one is done with the best of intentions.  She goes through a great amount of personal growth, and Skin Game shows it.  She’s probably in the top three or four of my favorite DF characters.

Cool, I think we're getting somewhere.

One:  I want to address a few of the things that you said about who should and should not have possession of the swords.  Much of the responses that you’ve given state that Dresden shouldn’t be the custodian of the swords because a sword wielded for the wrong reasons is incredibly fragile.  The one thing, though, is that after Grave Peril, Dresden has never, never, NEVER had any inclination to wield a Sword.  He’s very vocally against it.  When he talks about the Knights, it’s not uncommon for him to drop in lines such as “And that’s why I will never be a knight.”  Even when his daughter is almost certainly going to die and he crosses every line in Changes, he doesn’t pick up the sword.  He gives them to others who he thinks would best use them.

In Cold Days, Harry’s in a position that he might, in a rage, do some sort of violent thing without thinking.  However, that kind of rash thinking doesn't put the sword in danger if it's sitting at home in the popcorn tin by the door.  To go from custodian of the sword to wielder of the sword requires that Harry must be carrying it on him, or already be planning on using it.  To do either would mean that Harry would have had to make the choice to suddenly be a wielder – something that he would certainly not do in Cold Days.

If you can show me where, post Grave Peril, Harry considers using one of the Swords in his possession, I’ll admit that there really is a danger here and that his custodianship would put the swords in danger.  But I don’t believe such a thing exists.

You're right that Harry never seems to intend to use a Sword himself, but that's not the only way they can be in danger. He could give them to the wrong person (he blames himself for this at the end of Skin Game). Or he may hoard them and not give them out to use when they're really needed. Or he could jealously hide them, then get his ass killed for real and leave them lost.

It's not just the danger that he, himself, could use them wrong -- it's that under the mantle's influence, he's lost the perspective and mindset that made him a good choice for custodian in the first place.

Dipping into a bit of lore from an unrelated property, so this is in spoilers just to save space:

(click to show/hide)

In Sentinels of the Multiverse, there's a lineage of heroes called the Virtuoso of the Void; they are magical musicians who largely have one job -- to stop a rampaging earth spirit from destroying humanity. Typically, previous generations will seek out and train later generations.

Until one ended up corrupted. He still did his one job of stopping the earth spirit, but he was power hungry. Instead of seeking out and training a new generation of Virtuosos, he sought them out and stole their power for himself. He was still able to do his one function, but he screwed over the next generation when he died, and the next would-be Virtuoso was killed before she could even come into her power,
 and the modern one was laughably unprepared for his own bout with that earth spirit.

So that's the kind of danger that a custodian with the wrong mindset can have -- not necessarily immediate destruction of the Swords,
 but something that could endanger their future.

Two:  You ask how I could believe that being a custodian of the swords is not dependent on one’s own actions and moral code.  The difference is in how you define the word “should.”  When we ask the question of “Should Dresden be custodian?” there’s two different ways we can take it.

You and I, and Karrin and Dresden, and any mortal can debate whether someone should or should not have something.  The US debates all the time on whether people should or should not have firearms, and to what extent, and under what permits.  There’s ultimately no right or wrong answer; only general consensus.  To us, “Should” means “I judge that this is the best possible choice, given all we know.” 

The swords, though, are artifacts which are powered directly by the will of TWG.  They are effective when their weilders are on mission, ineffective other times.  While TWG is not the same thing as the Christian God that people in the real world believe in, he has the same essential attributes and is intended to be a representation of the real thing.  When we’re talking about a being who is omnipotent and omniscient, who has an ineffable plan for the world, “Should” takes on a different meaning.  “Should” means “This is where TWG would want it to go.”

Dresden never is custodian of the sword on his own merits.  He doesn’t earn the right to be keeper of the sword.  Remember this bit from The Warrior, during the confrontation between Father Douglas and Michael:Dresden’s not custodian because he earns it.  It even seems at some times, to some people, that it must be the working of evil that he has them at all.  And I know that in this moment, it seems like Harry shouldn’t hold them, either.  At least, it does to Karrin.  But “should” for mortals is not “should” for TWG.

I'd argue that Harry is definitely custodian on his own merits -- fighting alongside the three Knights to stop the Denarians, for instance. Being able to get a shadow of the Fallen into a Heel Face Turn. Just generally being a good man standing against the darkness.

And whether one should have possession of the Swords isn't a permanent thing, whether we're talking custodians or Knights. Murphy, for instance, was apparently the absolutely correct person to wield Fidelacchius at Chichen Itza. But in a different time and a different place, she is not.

Just because Harry is the proper custodian at points A and C does not mean he is automatically the proper custodian at point B. The Harry in Cold Days is not the Harry we've been following for the previous 13 books -- he has to get back to that point, and before he does, there are things he is temporarily disqualified from.

Three:  You ask me about the difference between Sanya and Michael.  The difference comes in their particular creeds:  Michael is Catholic, and Sanya is agnostic.  I don’t mean by this that Michael is somehow better than Sanya, but being Catholic means that he regularly goes to TWG in prayer and seeks his guidance on many things.  Sanya, on the other hand, candidly states that the Archangel Michael and Uriel could be aliens or some sort of delusion.  Obviously, he’s still a Knight; TWG is sponsoring him just as much as he is Michael.  But Sanya’s actions do not reflect a proactive seeking of their will; rather, a reactive following of commands.  He doesn’t pray for help and guidance and support; rather, he acts as he sees fit and remarks that if TWG has an issue with his actions, that he’s never come to him about it.  This also reflects him giving the sword back to Dresden in Changes:  Sanya believes that if Uriel has a problem, then he should step in.

The difference is small.  But when we’re talking about angels, beings whose primary responsibility is to preserve the freedom of will and the ability to choose, there’s a big difference between a man seeking guidance and choosing based off of that guidance versus choosing first and assuming that divine intervention will step in and stop him if he chose wrong. 

Oh, and here I went and wrote an essay again.  *sigh*

The fact that Sanya is a knight I'd say puts him on equal footing with Michael. Just because he doesn't literally pray doesn't mean he is somehow out of the loop.

The three Knights operate differently, yes. But I don't see that as reason to discount what any of them say about the disposition of the Swords.

Or to put it another way, if Sanya was wrong in his assessment of Dresden, then Uriel should have said so.

[Quantus]

Fair enough, but explosions would be bumped up the rank to "terrorism," which would get feds involved, and none of the parties involved want that.

Devil's advocate on this, but while I dont doubt that Terrorism would be mentioned if explosives get used, I could see Drug Cartel's or even Local Organized Crime as getting credit, if only as possible ways it might be left in local jurisdictions. 

[Mr. Death]

Devil's advocate on this, but while I dont doubt that Terrorism would be mentioned if explosives get used, I could see Drug Cartel's or even Local Organized Crime as getting credit, if only as possible ways it might be left in local jurisdictions.

True, but it's more or less a moot point, anyway. Murphy outright states that Harry's office is the last time there's been an explosion in the city, so that is apparently a tactic that the Fomor, White Court, Marcone and the BFS are simply not using.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Who is "she" Murphy or Mab?
. Read pages 26 through 30 of Skin Game, Murphy gives Harry the big lecture about isolating himself from his friends...  Her attitude is that Harry purposely did that, and she is worried about him.. If she knew the skinny, she wouldn't have given the lecture..
Apparently he didn't lay anything out and Murphy didn't ask, again read pages 26 -30..  A] No, it appears that Harry didn't mention Mab.. B] From the text, no, Murphy didn't ask, she assumed some psychological explanation about Harry isolating himself on the island from his friends and family on purpose..  It may not be a lack of caring, but it is idiotic amateur psychologist at work.. C] Bingo, if she truly trusted him to have his secrets... Then she'd truly trust him to have a good reason for those secrets, ergo not give him shit in the form of a guilt trip about his friends being so concerned because he purposely isolated himself on Demonreach for a year...  Just a "missed you Harry what's the plan?" Would do  nicely.if she truly trusted him...

Sorry, but I don't read it that way.  Can you quote me the exact text you are referring too.  However, before you do so, this is what I found:

“You could live here,” she said. Then added, a beat too quickly, “In Chicago. You could, you know. Move back to town.”

I frowned, still playing with my cat. “I don’t . . . Look, when the next freak burns down my place, maybe I won’t get as lucky as I did last time.”

“Last time you wound up with a broken back and working for a monster,” Karrin said.

“Exactly,” I said. “And it was only because of literal divine intervention that none of my neighbors died.” I shook my head. “The island isn’t a kind place, but no one is going to come looking for trouble there.”

“Except you,” she said gently. “I worry about what will happen to you if you stay out there alone too long. That kind of isolation isn’t good for you, Harry.”

“It’s necessary,” I said. “It’s safer for me. It’s safer for everyone around me.”

The dialog continues and Murphy speculates why Harry is afraid to move back to Chicago, but clearly they are talking about the future and not talking about why Harry had already spent so much time on the island.  More to the point if you go back to the very end of Cold Days you will find this bit of dialog in a short discussion between Thomas and Harry as Thomas and Murphy are about to depart:

"... That thing the island said was in your head?"

"Another reason to stay here," I said. "If Molly's the one who can help me, I'm on my own for now. But Demonreach seems to be able to make it leave me alone, at least while I'm here. Pretty much means I need to stay until Molly gets herself back together."

Even if you assume Murphy was on deck and didn't hear the conversation; which seems somewhat unlikely to me, you would have to assume Thomas never told Murphy about why Harry decided to stay.

I'm in agreement with you about Murphy's reaction to Harry in Cold Days.  She is somewhat cold and her first words are definitely accusatory.  "I hear you belong to Mab now."  I just don't see that attitude carrying over to Skin Game. 

Now the swords are a separate matter.  I don't think Murphy was wrong to keep the swords in her possession in Cold Days, however that doesn't mean she was right to assume she would remain their custodian in the future or that she would know when the right time had come to use them. 

However, even the swords are a secondary matter in the greater consideration of Karrin Murphy's personality.  She was definitely damaged goods in Cold Days.  Butters could see that and told Harry.  Also, it seems to me that when Murphy tried to analyze Harry in Cold Days she was projecting her own situation and fears of where she was headed, into Harry's situation.  (Relevant Quote below.)  I think this is true even if some of her analysis was correct.  I don't think she was the same judgmental person in Skin Game and despite the debacle with the sword she appeared to be getting better.  Now that could all change in Peace Talks, but we will have to wait and see.   

"I'm not angry at you, Harry," she said. "I don't hate you. I don't think you've gone bad. A lot of people have fallen into the trap you did. People better than either of us."

"Uh," I said. "The evil-Queen-of-Faerie trap?"

"Christ, Harry," Murphy said quietly. "No one just starts giggling and wearing black and signs up to become a villainous monster. How the hell do you think it happens?" She shook her head, her eyes pained. "It happens to people. Just people. They make questionable choices, for what might be very good reasons. They make choice after choice, and none of them is slaughtering roomfuls of saints, or murdering hundreds of baby seals, or rubber-room irrational. But it adds up. And then one day they look around and realize that they're so far over the line that they can't remember where it was."

[Mr. Death]

I'm in agreement with you about Murphy's reaction to Harry in Cold Days.  She is somewhat cold and her first words are definitely accusatory.  "I hear you belong to Mab now."  I just don't see that attitude carrying over to Skin Game. 

Heck, I don't think it even carries over to the rest of Cold Days. It's really just that conversation where Murphy is cold to Harry -- afterward, they have a moment, and she's a lot more supportive of him.

Now the swords are a separate matter.  I don't think Murphy was wrong to keep the swords in her possession in Cold Days, however that doesn't mean she was right to assume she would remain their custodian in the future or that she would know when the right time had come to use them.

I don't know how far she assumed she'd keep them; when it comes to the Swords, "the foreseeable future" is murky as hell. Most likely, she was waiting for some kind of sign. In the end, though, Amoracchius was exactly where it needed to be, and Fidelacchius ended up new and improved and in the hands of a new Knight.

Seems like it worked out pretty well, as far as the Swords are concerned. Remember, no accidents.

However, even the swords are a secondary matter in the greater consideration of Karrin Murphy's personality.  She was definitely damaged goods in Cold Days.  Butters could see that and told Harry.  Also, it seems to me that when Murphy tried to analyze Harry in Cold Days she was projecting her own situation and fears of where she was headed, into Harry's situation.  (Relevant Quote below.)  I think this is true even if some of her analysis was correct.  I don't think she was the same judgmental person in Skin Game and despite the debacle with the sword she appeared to be getting better.  Now that could all change in Peace Talks, but we will have to wait and see.

I'm basically in agreement with you here. Overall in Skin Game, she's much more together than we'd seen her in Ghost Story or Cold Days. I don't get the people who talk about her falling into despair, considering her last scene is her joking and laughing with Butters and Harry, and then making out with Harry.

[DonBugen]

Mr. Death!  Glad to hear back from you.

 

You're right that Harry never seems to intend to use a Sword himself, but that's not the only way they can be in danger. He could give them to the wrong person (he blames himself for this at the end of Skin Game). Or he may hoard them and not give them out to use when they're really needed. Or he could jealously hide them, then get his ass killed for real and leave them lost.

It's not just the danger that he, himself, could use them wrong -- it's that under the mantle's influence, he's lost the perspective and mindset that made him a good choice for custodian in the first place.

There is a difference, psychologically, between impulsive action and reasoned choice that I think you’re ignoring here.  The Winter Mantle impacts a person’s baser instincts, but doesn’t change who they are (per Uriel).  It causes Harry to have these moments of intense anger and aggression, which you’ve repeatedly held as examples that he isn’t in a fit mental condition to be custodian of the swords.

 

The problem is, Cold Days and Skin Game show nothing but Dresden having these sudden bursts of Id, then asserting his choice and free will to choose whether to follow them or indulge in them.  Every time.  The only time that he ever does choose to follow the mantle’s influence, it is a reasoned choice in order to fight Maeve, and Harry also chooses to stop it when he realizes how ineffective it is.   

 

My argument to you was that the swords were only in danger if they were left suspect to these bursts of Id; the primate brain reacting before the rational brain can assert itself.  I posited that the only circumstance that this would happen in is if Harry was carrying the Sword or chose to be a wielder of the Sword – two things that would only happen if Harry had already choose poorly, which was something that the Mantle wouldn’t influence him to do.

Mab’s eyes snapped to Demonreach.  “I have his oath, Ancient One.  What he has given is mine by right, and you may not gainsay it.  He is mine to shape as I please.”

And a voice - a very calm, very gentile, very rational voice, whispered in my ear: “Lies.  Mab cannot change who you are.”

You countered my argument by giving several examples of ways in which Harry could harm the swords which also would not happen by the Winter Mantle amping his primate brain, but only by Dresden making a conscious choice to do so.  I don’t see any of your examples, including the out-of-universe example, as successfully countering my argument.  Unless you can find an example or provide an argument as to why my reasoning is faulty, I see my argument as standing.

 

I'd argue that Harry is definitely custodian on his own merits -- fighting alongside the three Knights to stop the Denarians, for instance. Being able to get a shadow of the Fallen into a Heel Face Turn. Just generally being a good man standing against the darkness.

And whether one should have possession of the Swords isn't a permanent thing, whether we're talking custodians or Knights. Murphy, for instance, was apparently the absolutely correct person to wield Fidelacchius at Chichen Itza. But in a different time and a different place, she is not.

Just because Harry is the proper custodian at points A and C does not mean he is automatically the proper custodian at point B. The Harry in Cold Days is not the Harry we've been following for the previous 13 books -- he has to get back to that point, and before he does, there are things he is temporarily disqualified from.

First – are you conceding to my initial argument, that the swords have an intended holder and owner by TWG, per the evidence given?  Your comments seem ambiguous of that.

 

Second – I do agree that custodianship isn’t permanent, but for different reasons.  When Harry enters into custodianship of each sword, he is given the sword and tasked to give it to the next bearer.  I’m not sure if TWG has temporal omniscience or not – Michael claims that he does, but that may be his Catholicism talking - but it’s clear that his servants do not; Uriel indicates that the angels operate by extremely accurate prediction of human behavior which only occasionally surprises them.  At the very least, Uriel’s reaction to Dresden’s comment about predestination in The Warrior leads me to believe that the Dresdenverses’ TWG does not include predestination, and the choosing of Harry as custodian is a calculated effort which predicts a likely end and maximum amount of good.

 

If Harry were to ‘surprise’ Heaven by choosing something different and unexpected, assuming that such a thing is possible, I think that TWG could easily decide that he is no longer fit to hold the swords.  However, if such a thing were to happen I would not expect Uriel or Gabriel or Michael (the angelic one) to suddenly show up to take the sword away; these are beings whose stated primary objective is to preserve the freedom of choice among mortals.  Rather, it seems logical that they would influence other outside forces which might have the effect of bringing other mortals into the mix, who would make their own choices to take the swords from that person.

 

…. Which is, in effect, exactly what does happen in Cold Days.  So in retrospect, I can’t really say whether it is within TWG’s will or not for the swords to remain with Harry; Murph’s presence and choice overrides that.  Nor can I say that if Murph was subtly influenced to be present and in the mindset to appoint herself custodian of the swords, that it was because Harry would have put them in danger.  It may have been as part of an elaborate set of circumstances in order to make sure that Butters was appointed by Harry as knight.  But yes, I will concede that just because it is TWG’s will for Harry to be custodian of the swords through the books, it does not necessarily follow that TWG could not change his mind.

 

However, it does not follow that ‘possible’ goes straight into ‘likely’.  Uriel is with Dresden through almost every step of his change into Winter Knight – from when his back’s broken, to the guidance he gives before his resurrection, to his actions in Skin Game.  It’s clear from Uriel’s interactions at the end of Ghost Story that Harry acted exactly as Uriel had hoped, and Uriel’s chosen seven words of truth to offset the seven words of lies are angled specifically to give Harry hope and to encourage him to stand strong against the darkness and to not give himself up to the temptations he is about to endure.  It’s no secret what the Winter Mantle does to a person; Lloyd Slate was no different from the myriad of Winter Knights who came before him.  Do you think that Uriel would be surprised at Dresden’s actions in Cold Days?  Does any of those violent outbursts look like an act of conscious choice to act against the probable flow of events?

 

Consider this:  we see evidence that Harry is already influenced by the mantle, though not so strongly, in Changes.  The Winter Knight chose Karrin and Susan to wield the swords in Chichen Itza, to positive result.  A knight of the cross came by afterwards and appointed the Winter Knight again to be the custodian of the swords.  Is it likely at all that Uriel and Sanya are somehow confused or mislead as to what the mantle does to a person?  Could you see Uriel watching Harry in the fight with Andi, saying “Oh crap – I didn’t realize that was what the Mantle did.  OK, better call Murphy over to babysit the swords for a while.”?

 

I can’t.  It just doesn’t seem likely.  It’s clear from Ghost Story that Harry acted just as Uriel expected him to, and the only improbable act of choice that Dresden exerts in Cold Days and beyond is the choice to fight the mantle – also something that Uriel’s banking on.  I think that Murphy’s guilty of doing the same thing that Father Douglas attempted to do in The Warrior – stripped the chosen custodian of the swords because they trusted the judgment of their own eyes above the judgment of beings who can see far better and anticipate all eventualities.

 

The fact that Sanya is a knight I'd say puts him on equal footing with Michael. Just because he doesn't literally pray doesn't mean he is somehow out of the loop.

The three Knights operate differently, yes. But I don't see that as reason to discount what any of them say about the disposition of the Swords.

Or to put it another way, if Sanya was wrong in his assessment of Dresden, then Uriel should have said so.

They are on equal footing, and it has nothing to do with literal prayer.  It has everything to do with how a person makes their choice.

 

Human beings are fallible beings.  Michael acknowledges this and looks for guidance before making a decision if he can.  Sanya follows given commands and assumes that an angel will speak up if he goes wrong.  That’s dangerous when we’re talking about beings who don’t act to contradict the expressed choice of an individual.  Uriel literally can’t step in when a mortal makes a choice.  That’s why he had to transubstantiate himself in Skin Game; that’s why the angel of death in Ghost Story couldn’t intervene when Forthill lay dying.

 

Besides, let’s take this argument in a different way.  You state that Sanya’s stated opinion on a person’s certainty of being able to be a custodian of the Swords should be taken as a literal truth, and if a person is certain that they should be the custodian, then they definitely should not be one.  By your logic, then, Harry should not have given the swords to Karrin and Susan in Changes.

“Karrin,” I said, and held out the sword.  Sanya’s eyebrows climbed toward the roof.

“I’ve… been offered that sword before, Harry,” she said quietly.  “Nothing’s changed since then.”

“I’m not asking you to take up the mantle of a Knight,” I said quietly.  “I want to entrust it to you for this night, for this purpose.  This sword was made to fight darkness, and there’s going to be plenty to go around.  Take it up, just until my girl is safe.”

Murphy frowned.  She looked at Sanya and said, “Can he do this?”

“Can you?” Sanya asked, looking at me.

“I was entrusted as the sword’s guardian,” I said calmly.  “Exactly what am I supposed to do with it if it is not my place to choose the sword’s bearer to the best of my ability?”

Sanya considered that for a moment, then shrugged.  “Seems implicit to me.  They gave you the power of choice when they entrusted you with the swords.  One of those things they seemed to tell you without ever saying anything that sounds remotely related.”

Murphy and Sanya question whether Dresden can just dole out the swords to people without calling them to be knights, and Dresden is dead certain that he can.  If being certain that one is right in their ability to choose means that one cannot therefore be a chooser, then that would also be stating that Dresden was wrong to choose Karrin at Chichen Itza – something which you yourself have acknowledged was not the case.  It just seems very likely that Sanya’s statement of “If you were sure you should have this choice, that would convince me you shouldn’t have it” (paraphrased) is more a state of his personal belief, rather than an ironclad rule

[Arjan]

“If you were sure you should have this choice, that would convince me you shouldn’t have it” (paraphrased) is more a state of his personal belief, rather than an ironclad rule

It is actually a nice piece of foreshadowing especially if you combine it with Harry's reaction in Skin Game when Michael gives Harry the sword.

[Mr. Death]

Mr. Death!  Glad to hear back from you.

Yeah, last couple weeks have been crazy. Wedding (not mine), honeymoon (also not mine, I was conscripted into grilling by the bride), and other stuff.
 

There is a difference, psychologically, between impulsive action and reasoned choice that I think you’re ignoring here.  The Winter Mantle impacts a person’s baser instincts, but doesn’t change who they are (per Uriel).  It causes Harry to have these moments of intense anger and aggression, which you’ve repeatedly held as examples that he isn’t in a fit mental condition to be custodian of the swords.

The problem is, Cold Days and Skin Game show nothing but Dresden having these sudden bursts of Id, then asserting his choice and free will to choose whether to follow them or indulge in them.  Every time.  The only time that he ever does choose to follow the mantle’s influence, it is a reasoned choice in order to fight Maeve, and Harry also chooses to stop it when he realizes how ineffective it is.   

My argument to you was that the swords were only in danger if they were left suspect to these bursts of Id; the primate brain reacting before the rational brain can assert itself.  I posited that the only circumstance that this would happen in is if Harry was carrying the Sword or chose to be a wielder of the Sword – two things that would only happen if Harry had already choose poorly, which was something that the Mantle wouldn’t influence him to do.

The Mantle doesn't stop at just poking the Id. Harry as a whole is impacted and influenced by it -- Harry has a strong enough will to resist it and remain himself, but it's a battle to do so during Cold Days.

The Mantle won't forcibly change Harry, but Harry as a human does have the capacity to fall under its influence and give into it. There are bits in Cold Days where it's a close thing and Harry pulls back at the last second, such as the confrontation with Maeve.

The Mantle and Mab may not be able to change Harry, but by the same token they weren't able to change Slate either -- and yet, according to Sarissa, who he was as a man did indeed change.

Harry can resist the Mantle's influence -- but it's by no means a guarantee, and during the span of Cold Days is when he's most vulnerable. If his anger and aggression got him the Swords that he wanted, that's going to reinforce the Mantle's influence; getting a reality check that Murphy gave him is by contrast going to reinforce Dresden.

You countered my argument by giving several examples of ways in which Harry could harm the swords which also would not happen by the Winter Mantle amping his primate brain, but only by Dresden making a conscious choice to do so.  I don’t see any of your examples, including the out-of-universe example, as successfully countering my argument.  Unless you can find an example or provide an argument as to why my reasoning is faulty, I see my argument as standing.

My point was, if the Mantle did succeed in getting to Harry, it would change his choices. Harry, as he is now, is not someone who will hoard the Swords out of a need to possess them; the Mantle, if he couldn't control it, could turn him into someone who would.

During Cold Days, Harry is at a crossroads in regard to the Mantle, still trying to master it. Until he does, keeping the Swords away from him is safest for both him and the Swords.

First – are you conceding to my initial argument, that the swords have an intended holder and owner by TWG, per the evidence given?  Your comments seem ambiguous of that.

I don't think that the Swords had an intended holder at any given time was the issue, but yes. My point, though, is that the intended holder changes based on circumstance. And mortals and free will get into the picture, which only makes things even more murky.

Second – I do agree that custodianship isn’t permanent, but for different reasons.  When Harry enters into custodianship of each sword, he is given the sword and tasked to give it to the next bearer.  I’m not sure if TWG has temporal omniscience or not – Michael claims that he does, but that may be his Catholicism talking - but it’s clear that his servants do not; Uriel indicates that the angels operate by extremely accurate prediction of human behavior which only occasionally surprises them.  At the very least, Uriel’s reaction to Dresden’s comment about predestination in The Warrior leads me to believe that the Dresdenverses’ TWG does not include predestination, and the choosing of Harry as custodian is a calculated effort which predicts a likely end and maximum amount of good.

If Harry were to ‘surprise’ Heaven by choosing something different and unexpected, assuming that such a thing is possible, I think that TWG could easily decide that he is no longer fit to hold the swords.  However, if such a thing were to happen I would not expect Uriel or Gabriel or Michael (the angelic one) to suddenly show up to take the sword away; these are beings whose stated primary objective is to preserve the freedom of choice among mortals.  Rather, it seems logical that they would influence other outside forces which might have the effect of bringing other mortals into the mix, who would make their own choices to take the swords from that person.

…. Which is, in effect, exactly what does happen in Cold Days.  So in retrospect, I can’t really say whether it is within TWG’s will or not for the swords to remain with Harry; Murph’s presence and choice overrides that.  Nor can I say that if Murph was subtly influenced to be present and in the mindset to appoint herself custodian of the swords, that it was because Harry would have put them in danger.  It may have been as part of an elaborate set of circumstances in order to make sure that Butters was appointed by Harry as knight.  But yes, I will concede that just because it is TWG’s will for Harry to be custodian of the swords through the books, it does not necessarily follow that TWG could not change his mind.

Fair. If people can change, then their fitness as a custodian can change. Assuming predestination isn't in play, I'd say keeping the Swords from Harry is less he "would" have put them in danger and more he "could" have. Always in motion, the future is -- but Harry himself has noted that the Swords and their bearers are less invincible when they're off mission, and given his comments later in the book, Harry clearly wanted to use the Swords in Cold Days.

However, it does not follow that ‘possible’ goes straight into ‘likely’.  Uriel is with Dresden through almost every step of his change into Winter Knight – from when his back’s broken, to the guidance he gives before his resurrection, to his actions in Skin Game.  It’s clear from Uriel’s interactions at the end of Ghost Story that Harry acted exactly as Uriel had hoped, and Uriel’s chosen seven words of truth to offset the seven words of lies are angled specifically to give Harry hope and to encourage him to stand strong against the darkness and to not give himself up to the temptations he is about to endure.  It’s no secret what the Winter Mantle does to a person; Lloyd Slate was no different from the myriad of Winter Knights who came before him.  Do you think that Uriel would be surprised at Dresden’s actions in Cold Days?  Does any of those violent outbursts look like an act of conscious choice to act against the probable flow of events?

Surprised? No; as you say, he has all the information necessary to predict how Dresden would react to the Mantle; or rather, to predict the myriad ways he could have reacted to it.

The surface acts aren't the kind of choice that make Harry suitable or now, however -- it's the choice in how he deals with the Mantle over the long term. Uriel may well be expecting Harry to overcome the Mantle's baser instincts in the long run, just as you'd expect a drunk to sober up over the course of a few hours. But until that happened, he also apparently did not object to someone keeping the dangerous pointy things out of the drunk's hands. And, given how much Murphy talks about Faith, I would not be at all surprised to learn that one of TWG's agents had a hand in that.

No accidents, after all. Uriel plays the long game. Let's consider what might have happened if Cold Days had gone differently and Harry had the Swords going into Skin Game. In spoilers cuz it's kind of a long digression.

(click to show/hide)

Harry begins Skin Game with the Swords in his possession; the short answer here is that since Mab doesn't tell him they're going to see Nicodemus, Harry wouldn't think to bring the Swords off the island, which screws everybody.

So let's say Harry did bring the Swords, so that when he knows the Denarians are involved, he offers Fidelacchius to Murphy, as he's done a few times before. If she doesn't accept, then she doesn't have the Sword to pull as a trump card after Butters mucks things up and she and Harry probably die. Maybe Michael, too, if he still tries to sacrifice himself; depends on what Harry did with Amoracchius after making the offer to Murphy, but we know that Harry does not want to involve Michael's family any more than absolutely necessary, so it's unlikely he'd stash it there.

If Murphy does take the Sword, then Nicodemus knows about it, and can plan for it. As we see in the book itself, he does a pretty bang up job of breaking the Sword in Murphy's hands when he's all but improvising. If he knows it's coming and can plan for it, I don't see him not succeeding at a time and place more to his choosing.

So, at least to my reckoning, Harry having the Swords in Cold Days into Skin Game tends to end worse for everyone involved. Murphy,
 consciously or not, ended up putting the Swords where they needed to be to do the greatest good.

Consider this:  we see evidence that Harry is already influenced by the mantle, though not so strongly, in Changes.  The Winter Knight chose Karrin and Susan to wield the swords in Chichen Itza, to positive result.  A knight of the cross came by afterwards and appointed the Winter Knight again to be the custodian of the swords.  Is it likely at all that Uriel and Sanya are somehow confused or mislead as to what the mantle does to a person?  Could you see Uriel watching Harry in the fight with Andi, saying “Oh crap – I didn’t realize that was what the Mantle did.  OK, better call Murphy over to babysit the swords for a while.”?

Harry received Power for the task in Changes, but he doesn't get the Mantle until after.

“I will,” I said. “With a condition.”
“Speak it.”
“That before my service begins, you restore my body to health.
That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take
her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed.
And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift
my hand against those I love.”
...
You must understand, wizard. Once you are my
Knight, once this last quest of yours is complete, you are mine
...
“You made a deal,” Murphy said.
“Yeah, I did. For Maggie, I did.” I looked around the room. “I’m
me until this is all over. That was part of the deal.

What we see in Changes is the down-payment Mab makes before Harry's service as Winter Knight starts. Both of them make clear that Harry will complete this last task and then his tenure as Winter Knight proper begins.

I can’t.  It just doesn’t seem likely.  It’s clear from Ghost Story that Harry acted just as Uriel expected him to, and the only improbable act of choice that Dresden exerts in Cold Days and beyond is the choice to fight the mantle – also something that Uriel’s banking on.  I think that Murphy’s guilty of doing the same thing that Father Douglas attempted to do in The Warrior – stripped the chosen custodian of the swords because they trusted the judgment of their own eyes above the judgment of beings who can see far better and anticipate all eventualities.

Father Douglas tried to take the Swords through murder, hostages, tazing and threatening to blow up an innocent teenage girl.

Murphy already had the Swords (most likely because Harry outright entrusted them to her), and in that scene, she is definitely not the one threatening rage and violence.

Rage and violence are against what the Swords are about. That's always been the case. If one side is preaching faith, patience and prudence, and the other is on the verge of murder, I know what side I want the Swords on.

They are on equal footing, and it has nothing to do with literal prayer.  It has everything to do with how a person makes their choice.

Human beings are fallible beings.  Michael acknowledges this and looks for guidance before making a decision if he can.  Sanya follows given commands and assumes that an angel will speak up if he goes wrong.  That’s dangerous when we’re talking about beings who don’t act to contradict the expressed choice of an individual.  Uriel literally can’t step in when a mortal makes a choice.  That’s why he had to transubstantiate himself in Skin Game; that’s why the angel of death in Ghost Story couldn’t intervene when Forthill lay dying.

The Knights work differently than others. They do have a direct line; whether they pray or just think about what they do, that guidance is there.

Butters doesn't pray, but he gets direct guidance on what to do and who to help via a video game trope for goodness' sake. For all we know, Sanya finds his divine messages in his vodka.

Point is, however the Knight feels, believes and operates, TWG speaks to them, personally, to guide them.

Besides, let’s take this argument in a different way.  You state that Sanya’s stated opinion on a person’s certainty of being able to be a custodian of the Swords should be taken as a literal truth, and if a person is certain that they should be the custodian, then they definitely should not be one.  By your logic, then, Harry should not have given the swords to Karrin and Susan in Changes.

Murphy and Sanya question whether Dresden can just dole out the swords to people without calling them to be knights, and Dresden is dead certain that he can.  If being certain that one is right in their ability to choose means that one cannot therefore be a chooser, then that would also be stating that Dresden was wrong to choose Karrin at Chichen Itza – something which you yourself have acknowledged was not the case.  It just seems very likely that Sanya’s statement of “If you were sure you should have this choice, that would convince me you shouldn’t have it” (paraphrased) is more a state of his personal belief, rather than an ironclad rule

The issue isn't about "being certain that one is right in their ability to choose," it's being certain that they are entitled to have the Swords. They're not talking about certainty in what Harry does, but certainty in what Harry is.

It's about seeing the Swords as a possession, (They're mine, I am supposed to have them!) vs. knowing and respecting the weight of the responsibility of holding them (I'm not sure I should have these; but now that I have them, I'm going to take this responsibility seriously).

Harry had reservations about being custodian, but he accepts the responsibility (albeit not without some grumbling). Now that he's accepted he's custodian, he also accepts that it is his decision on how to dole out the Swords to the best of his ability.

It is actually a nice piece of foreshadowing especially if you combine it with Harry's reaction in Skin Game when Michael gives Harry the sword.

Agreed. We have two scenes of Harry accepting the Sword when it's offered to him and having deep reservations about it; each time, those reservations reinforce that he's the right person for the job because he understands the weight of that responsibility.

Contrast that to the scene in Cold Days, where Harry is angrily demanding them back because they're his. There is a total change in mindset there. It's Harry that's acting like Father Douglas there, not Murphy.

[Mira]

There is a difference, psychologically, between impulsive action and reasoned choice that I think you’re ignoring here.  The Winter Mantle impacts a person’s baser instincts, but doesn’t change who they are (per Uriel).  It causes Harry to have these moments of intense anger and aggression, which you’ve repeatedly held as examples that he isn’t in a fit mental condition to be custodian of the swords.

Yes, as Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, Harry's judgement isn't imparted by the mantle.

The problem is, Cold Days and Skin Game show nothing but Dresden having these sudden bursts of Id, then asserting his choice and free will to choose whether to follow them or indulge in them.  Every time.  The only time that he ever does choose to follow the mantle’s influence, it is a reasoned choice in order to fight Maeve, and Harry also chooses to stop it when he realizes how ineffective it is. 

Exactly, some seem to think because the mantle magnified Harry's sexual urges he has turned into a rapist... However he hasn't raped anyone,  and has done his best to get these urges under control as quickly as possible, as opposed to indulging in them.

My argument to you was that the swords were only in danger if they were left suspect to these bursts of Id; the primate brain reacting before the rational brain can assert itself.  I posited that the only circumstance that this would happen in is if Harry was carrying the Sword or chose to be a wielder of the Sword – two things that would only happen if Harry had already choose poorly, which was something that the Mantle wouldn’t influence him to do.

Clearly Heaven doesn't think it applies either, because at the end of Changes, Harry is Winter Knight, yet Uriel wants the Swords returned to his care knowing full well the influence of the mantle upon Harry's more basic urges...  The only danger I could see is possibly Harry using one of the Swords to get his own selfish way, but that is totally out of character for him..  My theory is though the Mantle magnifies urges it can only go so far if the holder's character runs contrary to the urge... 

You countered my argument by giving several examples of ways in which Harry could harm the swords which also would not happen by the Winter Mantle amping his primate brain, but only by Dresden making a conscious choice to do so.  I don’t see any of your examples, including the out-of-universe example, as successfully countering my argument.  Unless you can find an example or provide an argument as to why my reasoning is faulty, I see my argument as standing.

Nor does Heaven apparently since at the end of Skin Game he is still the Winter Knight, yet Michael is handing into his care the remaining Holy Sword.  Not only that but Harry is allowed to have some of the most powerful weapons imagined, so powerful that only those clever enough to have broken though all of the protections of Hades vault is allowed to have them.

Second – I do agree that custodianship isn’t permanent, but for different reasons.  When Harry enters into custodianship of each sword, he is given the sword and tasked to give it to the next bearer.  I’m not sure if TWG has temporal omniscience or not – Michael claims that he does, but that may be his Catholicism talking - but it’s clear that his servants do not; Uriel indicates that the angels operate by extremely accurate prediction of human behavior which only occasionally surprises them.  At the very least, Uriel’s reaction to Dresden’s comment about predestination in The Warrior leads me to believe that the Dresdenverses’ TWG does not include predestination, and the choosing of Harry as custodian is a calculated effort which predicts a likely end and maximum amount of good.

I think it is more of a contract between the custodian and Heaven...  The rep, in this case Uriel trusts in Harry's judgement, that he will have enough insight to give the right Sword, to the right person, at the right time, be it for just a few hours or something long term.

If Harry were to ‘surprise’ Heaven by choosing something different and unexpected, assuming that such a thing is possible, I think that TWG could easily decide that he is no longer fit to hold the swords.  However, if such a thing were to happen I would not expect Uriel or Gabriel or Michael (the angelic one) to suddenly show up to take the sword away; these are beings whose stated primary objective is to preserve the freedom of choice among mortals.  Rather, it seems logical that they would influence other outside forces which might have the effect of bringing other mortals into the mix, who would make their own choices to take the swords from that person.

Actually I see that a bit different, because of free will I don't see Heaven interfering..  Just like when Murphy made her poor choices and a Holy Sword got broken, Uriel not only didn't interfere, I don't believe he could as Nic gleefully reminded him.  I think it is the same with a custodian, if he or she chose the wrong person or the wrong purpose, free will, it just has to play itself out..   

…. Which is, in effect, exactly what does happen in Cold Days.  So in retrospect, I can’t really say whether it is within TWG’s will or not for the swords to remain with Harry; Murph’s presence and choice overrides that.  Nor can I say that if Murph was subtly influenced to be present and in the mindset to appoint herself custodian of the swords, that it was because Harry would have put them in danger.  It may have been as part of an elaborate set of circumstances in order to make sure that Butters was appointed by Harry as knight.  But yes, I will concede that just because it is TWG’s will for Harry to be custodian of the swords through the books, it does not necessarily follow that TWG could not change his mind.

However I doubt that the Almighty did, since it is emphasized a couple of times in Skin Game is that the custodianship was something that Murphy took upon herself of her own free will.  Heaven didn't chose her for the job, and she was a bit less than truthful with Harry about that.  Again in her arrogance as Nic put it she had more faith in her own judgement than that of Heaven... Which did lead to a Sword being broken.. She knew why she shouldn't bring or wield a Holy Sword, but she trusted more in her own judgement..

However, it does not follow that ‘possible’ goes straight into ‘likely’.  Uriel is with Dresden through almost every step of his change into Winter Knight – from when his back’s broken, to the guidance he gives before his resurrection, to his actions in Skin Game.  It’s clear from Uriel’s interactions at the end of Ghost Story that Harry acted exactly as Uriel had hoped, and Uriel’s chosen seven words of truth to offset the seven words of lies are angled specifically to give Harry hope and to encourage him to stand strong against the darkness and to not give himself up to the temptations he is about to endure.  It’s no secret what the Winter Mantle does to a person; Lloyd Slate was no different from the myriad of Winter Knights who came before him.  Do you think that Uriel would be surprised at Dresden’s actions in Cold Days?  Does any of those violent outbursts look like an act of conscious choice to act against the probable flow of events?

I doubt that Uriel would be surprised, however he knows Harry well, just as Michael does, he knows the type of man Harry is at his core, and trusts him.

Consider this:  we see evidence that Harry is already influenced by the mantle, though not so strongly, in Changes.  The Winter Knight chose Karrin and Susan to wield the swords in Chichen Itza, to positive result.  A knight of the cross came by afterwards and appointed the Winter Knight again to be the custodian of the swords.  Is it likely at all that Uriel and Sanya are somehow confused or mislead as to what the mantle does to a person?  Could you see Uriel watching Harry in the fight with Andi, saying “Oh crap – I didn’t realize that was what the Mantle did.  OK, better call Murphy over to babysit the swords for a while.”?

Again, I think many readers are getting the fight with Andi out of perspective...  While Harry used poor judgement to break into Butters' apartment in the first place, he had no idea that Butters was now living with a werewolf...  He did not have any idea that anyone was home, so was totally surprised when he got attacked by a wolf... He defended himself, perhaps a bit more vigorously and with sexual overtones because of the mantle, but when he realized what and who, he stopped and felt terrible about it..   Actually if Murphy were in his shoes and surprised in that matter, while not having mantle enhancements I am sure she would have fought back with equal vigor and may have done more damage to Andi as a marshal artist...  So in my opinion that incident did not disqualify Harry to be the Holy Sword custodian... Also if the mantle was making Harry a monster, he could have just taken the Swords instead of backing off when Murphy told him she was in charge of them now.

 

Besides, let’s take this argument in a different way.  You state that Sanya’s stated opinion on a person’s certainty of being able to be a custodian of the Swords should be taken as a literal truth, and if a person is certain that they should be the custodian, then they definitely should not be one.  By your logic, then, Harry should not have given the swords to Karrin and Susan in Changes.

That is Sanya's stated opinion, but at the same time he isn't about to over ride Uriel's decision, or the decision of the person to whom the Swords were given to be cared for.

Murphy and Sanya question whether Dresden can just dole out the swords to people without calling them to be knights, and Dresden is dead certain that he can.  If being certain that one is right in their ability to choose means that one cannot therefore be a chooser, then that would also be stating that Dresden was wrong to choose Karrin at Chichen Itza – something which you yourself have acknowledged was not the case.  It just seems very likely that Sanya’s statement of “If you were sure you should have this choice, that would convince me you shouldn’t have it” (paraphrased) is more a state of his personal belief, rather than an ironclad rule

And Harry was right as confirmed by Michael and I believe Uriel.. The Swords are given out as needed to the one who can best use them at the time... Sometimes that is only for a few hours, other times to become full blown Knights..  Which again emphasizes that Murphy was in no way their rightful appointed custodian...  In Changes Harry chose her with great effect to wield one for the night..  In Skin Game she clearly states why she shouldn't wield a Sword, good thinking and on target... But then gives herself one of the Swords to wield anyway, knowing clearly that she shouldn't.. Now love may have muddied her judgement, and hard as it would have been to have left the Sword be, that is what she should have done..

[DonBugen]

So I'll get to the big meaty response in 12-18 hours, but I just wanted to give a refutation and an observation.

I followed him through the halls of the enormous church until we got to the staff's kitchen. He went to the fridge, opened it, and came out with a bottle of bourbon. He poured some into a coffee cup, drank it down, and poured some more. He offered me the bottle.

No, thanks. Aren't you supposed to drink vodka?

Aren't you supposed to wear a pointy hat and ride on a flying broomstick?

Touche, I said.

Clearly, Sanya gets his divine instruction from bourbon , not vodka. :p

Second,

It is actually a nice piece of foreshadowing especially if you combine it with Harry's reaction in Skin Game when Michael gives Harry the sword

I've thought so. And I also think it's telling that in the first time that Michael offers Dresden the sword in skin game, he doesn't offer it as a custodian - he offers Dresden to use it as a wielder, to save his daughter. And Harry says no. I think that it's in this moment that Harry really proves that he could, one day, be a wielder. It's not like he's faithless. Remember that he can burn red Court vampires with his amulet through the power of belief in magic. In this "God is Three Blind Men and an elephant" universe, I think that counts for something.

[Arjan]

Yes, as Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, Harry's judgement isn't imparted by the mantle.

That was skin game, not cold days. The whole point of cold days is to show the reader how dangerous that kind of power is and how close Harry came to loosing it not just in obvious ways, those are easier to resist, but also in more subtle ways. It would not have made a good story if it was not a struggle with serious risks.

Exactly, some seem to think because the mantle magnified Harry's sexual urges he has turned into a rapist... However he hasn't raped anyone,  and has done his best to get these urges under control as quickly as possible, as opposed to indulging in them.

Not just the sexual urges. Things like possession, power, pecking order.

That was the reason he wanted the swords, and even the rape thoughts had at least as much to do with power and possessiveness as with sex. He succeeded most of the time though if Molly was not so messed up herself she would have been seriously spooked by Harry's emotions she felt. Molly was already more winterish in cold days than Sarissa.

He failed at the very beginning though as Bob pointed out. It bit him later as it contributed to Butters mistrust of Harry in skin game.

Clearly Heaven doesn't think it applies either, because at the end of Changes, Harry is Winter Knight, yet Uriel wants the Swords returned to his care knowing full well the influence of the mantle upon Harry's more basic urges... 

Knowing full well that Harry would die and who would end up with them. And knowing full well that that influence would only start for real after his return.

The only danger I could see is possibly Harry using one of the Swords to get his own selfish way, but that is totally out of character for him..  My theory is though the Mantle magnifies urges it can only go so far if the holder's character runs contrary to the urge... 

Out of character is exactly the point. The whole book is about a possible change of character. Mab and Bob think it will and they speak out of experience. Uriel says Mab can not do it but Harry can, like every human, change himself because of whatever influence and that is the same to Mab and Bob. Mother Summer tells us that Harry can stay himself but that it will be difficult and that most people fail. I think her opinion is most realistic.

So out of character is not an argument here, the whole book is about character change.

Nor does Heaven apparently since at the end of Skin Game he is still the Winter Knight, yet Michael is handing into his care the remaining Holy Sword. 

That is after cold days. That book has a totally different athmosphere that is difficult to ignore.

Not only that but Harry is allowed to have some of the most powerful weapons imagined, so powerful that only those clever enough to have broken though all of the protections of Hades vault is allowed to have them.

Nicodemus is allowed to have one of them too.

I think it is more of a contract between the custodian and Heaven...  The rep, in this case Uriel trusts in Harry's judgement, that he will have enough insight to give the right Sword, to the right person, at the right time, be it for just a few hours or something long term.
Actually I see that a bit different, because of free will I don't see Heaven interfering..  Just like when Murphy made her poor choices and a Holy Sword got broken, Uriel not only didn't interfere, I don't believe he could as Nic gleefully reminded him.  I think it is the same with a custodian, if he or she chose the wrong person or the wrong purpose, free will, it just has to play itself out..

Not interfering is a bit misleading. There is a lot of subtle interference going on. Like when Harry threw fid the right persons did and did not catch it.

However I doubt that the Almighty did, since it is emphasized a couple of times in Skin Game is that the custodianship was something that Murphy took upon herself of her own free will.  Heaven didn't chose her for the job, and she was a bit less than truthful with Harry about that.

Harry trusted her with them and she did her best. That was all she could do.

  Again in her arrogance as Nic put it she had more faith in her own judgement than that of Heaven... Which did lead to a Sword being broken.. She knew why she shouldn't bring or wield a Holy Sword, but she trusted more in her own judgement..

I doubt that Uriel would be surprised, however he knows Harry well, just as Michael does, he knows the type of man Harry is at his core, and trusts him.
Again, I think many readers are getting the fight with Andi out of perspective...  While Harry used poor judgement to break into Butters' apartment in the first place, he had no idea that Butters was now living with a werewolf...  He did not have any idea that anyone was home, so was totally surprised when he got attacked by a wolf... He defended himself, perhaps a bit more vigorously and with sexual overtones because of the mantle, but when he realized what and who, he stopped and felt terrible about it..   

So breaking and entering would have been ok without a werewolf? What about ringing a bell?

Actually if Murphy were in his shoes and surprised in that matter, while not having mantle enhancements I am sure she would have fought back with equal vigor and may have done more damage to Andi as a marshal artist... 

Murphy would not have been in his position because she would never have broken in in the first place, she would have used the bell.

Yes, as Michael pointed out at the end of Skin Game, Harry's judgement isn't imparted by the mantle.

Again after cold days. Cold days is not really about the big battle scenes, it is about Harry's internal struggle and to ignore that is to rob the book of its meaning.

So in my opinion that incident did not disqualify Harry to be the Holy Sword custodian... Also if the mantle was making Harry a monster, he could have just taken the Swords instead of backing off when Murphy told him she was in charge of them now.

That is a very binary view. It is about free will versus nature, how more power makes it more difficult to stay yourself. How it usually ends and how avoidable that end is. About choices made under duress and influence that change your very being.

That is Sanya's stated opinion, but at the same time he isn't about to over ride Uriel's decision, or the decision of the person to whom the Swords were given to be cared for.
And Harry was right as confirmed by Michael and I believe Uriel.. The Swords are given out as needed to the one who can best use them at the time... Sometimes that is only for a few hours, other times to become full blown Knights..  Which again emphasizes that Murphy was in no way their rightful appointed custodian...  In Changes Harry chose her with great effect to wield one for the night..  In Skin Game she clearly states why she shouldn't wield a Sword, good thinking and on target... But then gives herself one of the Swords to wield anyway, knowing clearly that she shouldn't.. Now love may have muddied her judgement, and hard as it would have been to have left the Sword be, that is what she should have done..

And Harry would be dead. Break that thing any time to save a loved one.

"Whatever you do, do it for love. If you keep to that, your path will
never wander so far from the light that you can never return."