Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)

[Mr. Death]

Maybe it would be out of character for Captain America to suddenly turn, but Murph is no Captain America.  She’s already made a lot of very questionable choices, and is in the position of trying to grab every straw she can in order to protect Chicago, her main driving goal.  She’s already made the wrong choice for the right reasons at least twice since Harry’s return, and she isn’t the same person she was back in Changes.  I’m afraid for her.  I don’t think she has the same fortitude of will right now to be able to withstand temptation the way that Dresden did with the coin, and she’s extremely vulnerable.

My point wasn't that Murphy was as incorruptible as Captain America is supposed to be and shared his character traits.

It's that Murphy betraying Dresden, or grabbing any of the ill-gotten power she might be offered, is just as out of character and makes just as little sense as Captain America turning out to be Hydra all along is.

Of all the characters around Harry, she is singularly the least likely to even consider such a thing.

Murphy isn't stupid. Every single example she'd have of power being offered to someone, she's seen exactly how much it can destroy that person, and she remembers that.

She's seen literally people in her own line of work who were a lot like her at one point be corrupted and destroyed by ill-gotten power in Fool Moon, so she's disinclined to take power like that in a general sense.

She has seen first hand what the Denarii do to people (and has been both indirectly affected by it via Dresden and directly affected by it via getting her arse kicked). So she's not going to take a coin. And, more to the point, she wasn't present at any point that Namshiel's coin might have disappeared.

She's seen what Winter has done to Harry, so she's not going to take power from Faeries.

She's already been offered a job at Monoc, and she turned it down.

The most benign offer she's gotten, the Swords, she turned down -- and when she did take it up again, it went extremely bad for her, personally.

So, again, Murphy taking some offer of power would be grossly out of character given everything we've seen of her so far.

You're right that the temptation of ill-gotten power is a continuous theme of the series -- for Harry. He's the one who keeps getting the offers. He's the one who keeps having the inner turmoil over those offers. He's the one who we get to see mulling over whether he's a monster yet or not.

So what would the series gain by trying to duplicate that with a character we don't see into the head of? "I'm struggling with the temptation of dark power" is Harry's thing. Murphy's thing is to be the mortal viewpoint. Shoehorning some kind of evil power to her wouldn't add to the series. It'd only take away a crucial aspect of the setting.

[DonBugen]

How do you feel about Murph from Ghost Story onward, with her working in Marcone’s organization, allying with the White Court, and trying to fight the darkness in a far more desperate situation than she’s ever been in before?  Most of what you mention is pre-Ghost Story Murphy.  Do you feel that she’s really the same person?

True, I don’t see her flat-out betraying and trying to kill Harry.  But I can see her suddenly motivated to completely turn against his wishes and sabotage a mission all in a vain attempt to keep him safe.  Oh, wait – that’s already happened.

Nobody just suddenly starts dressing in black and cackling maniacally.  The road to hell is a gentle, gradual slope, and I think that Karrin’s story has always been one of slow self-destruction.  It’s started long before Changes, but everything afterward really kicked things into high gear.  Dresden’s fear of what would happen to her if her shield was taken away seems to be happening.  What’s book 20 going to look like?

EDIT:  Let me just say that I hope you’re right.  I really do want Murph to be Dresden’s strong, stalwart companion; the one who’s by his side through thick and thin, the vanilla mortal with the guts and smarts to take on anything that comes to her.  But I guess I’m getting cynical, and I just doubt it could last.

[Mr. Death]

How do you feel about Murph from Ghost Story onward, with her working in Marcone’s organization, allying with the White Court, and trying to fight the darkness in a far more desperate situation than she’s ever been in before?  Most of what you mention is pre-Ghost Story Murphy.  Do you feel that she’s really the same person?

Post Ghost Story, the offer from Monoc is almost certainly still there.

She hasn't taken it.

She's had plenty of opportunity to seek out more offers since then -- see the White Court and Marcone -- and she's still against it.

True, I don’t see her flat-out betraying and trying to kill Harry.  But I can see her suddenly motivated to completely turn against his wishes and sabotage a mission all in a vain attempt to keep him safe.  Oh, wait – that’s already happened.

I honestly do not know to what you could be referring.

Nobody just suddenly starts dressing in black and cackling maniacally.  The road to hell is a gentle, gradual slope, and I think that Karrin’s story has always been one of slow self-destruction.  It’s started long before Changes, but everything afterward really kicked things into high gear.  Dresden’s fear of what would happen to her if her shield was taken away seems to be happening.  What’s book 20 going to look like?

I don't see this at all. In Skin Game, she's the most psychologically together that we've seen her since Changes. She doesn't act like or at all appear to be someone who's on some kind of slippery slope to hell. She's giving advice about faith to Butters, she's supporting Harry, joking with him, and even when she's in a hospital bed she's smiling and laughing with him.

Does any of that sound like someone who's about to fall into darkness?

[DonBugen]

Her actions in Skin Game are why I'm suspicious, specifically because of her mental state in Ghost Story and Cold Days. I dunno - maybe she did a lot of healing since Cold Days. But she went from being frightened that Harry would fall to being dead certain that he would not despite evidence to the contrary, went from not wanting a relationship with Dresden to falling all over him, and went from being very internally troubled and conflicted to being the sudden voice of reason. I dunno, it's certainly possible. And I do agree - if you take what she says at face value, she'd never be a traitor, ever.

By the way, what I was referencing was how she attacked Nick with the sword, despite Harry telling her not to. She could have shot him. She could have attacked Big, Tall and Stinky. She could have called his bluff. But instead she chose to go the route that would have ensured the sword's destruction and Harry's or Michael's death, completely sabotaging the mission, all because she listened to her fears and did what felt was the only thing she could do at the time to protect him.

[Mr. Death]

Her actions in Skin Game are why I'm suspicious, specifically because of her mental state in Ghost Story and Cold Days. I dunno - maybe she did a lot of healing since Cold Days. But she went from being frightened that Harry would fall to being dead certain that he would not despite evidence to the contrary, went from not wanting a relationship with Dresden to falling all over him, and went from being very internally troubled and conflicted to being the sudden voice of reason. I dunno, it's certainly possible. And I do agree - if you take what she says at face value, she'd never be a traitor, ever.

The events of Cold Days explain the change. Karrin is wary of Harry, yes -- when he first comes back from the dead and she hasn't seen him in a year.

Then he spends the whole book being Harry. In that, she sees that he's not the monster he or she feared he is. He has some, shall we say, growing pains to deal with as far as the Mantle goes, but he proves repeatedly throughout the book that he is still Harry Dresden.

Seriously, just because Murphy's opening dialogues with Dresden in the book have her wary doesn't mean she's that way the whole book. She doesn't exactly push him away when he promises to do things to her that will have the neighbors complaining.

I'd suggest rereading Cold Days. She's the "voice of reason" to Harry himself there in a few places, and the things you're describing as a change between CD and SG are things that were present in CD in the first place.

By the way, what I was referencing was how she attacked Nick with the sword, despite Harry telling her not to. She could have shot him. She could have attacked Big, Tall and Stinky. She could have called his bluff. But instead she chose to go the route that would have ensured the sword's destruction and Harry's or Michael's death, completely sabotaging the mission, all because she listened to her fears and did what felt was the only thing she could do at the time to protect him.

Harry was the one who asked her if she was going to bring the Sword in the first place, and suggested she should bring it along.

Attacking Big, Tall and Stinky exposes her back to Nicodemus, at which point, hey, she's dead before she makes it to the big guy. Plus, the big guy is holding Harry in his hand. That's going to make it next to impossible for her to strike him effectively, and if she attacks him, there is nothing stopping him from just casually crushing Harry anyway.

Shooting Nicodemus does nothing, as we've seen numerous times before. The last time we saw him shot with anything less than an AK, his reaction was literally to roll his hand with a "get on with it" gesture because the only thing the gunshots did was muss his outfit.

Calling a hostage-taker's bluff is among the least intelligent things to do in a hostage situation.

And besides, it wasn't a bluff. Nicodemus might say it was a "ploy," but he outright admits that he wasn't sure if the Sword was in play. You can't say the entire thing was a ploy if the one thing it's supposedly a ploy for might not even be there. Saying it was a ploy is Nicodemus's excuse, and he explicitly likens it to the fiction that Harry really was pursuing Butters.

Which is to say it was bullshit, pure and simple. Nicodemus absolutely would have killed Harry and used Harry's own breaking of the agreement as justification if Murphy hadn't stepped in.

Seriously, what exactly is the sequence of events if Murphy doesn't act? Do you really think Nicodemus is going to go, "Oh, nevermind, put Harry down, let's get on with business"?

As I recall, Harry doesn't tell her not to attack Nicodemus with the Sword. He tries to tell her not to execute him with the Sword, but that's only after she's won their initial exchange.

Really, if you want to look at someone "completely sabotaging" the mission, that person's name is Waldo Butters. Without him acting on his misplaced fears -- and outright rejecting the things Murphy herself told him about how they can trust Dresden -- Karrin would not have been put into a situation in which there were no good options.

She ended up against an opponent that was out of her weight class, and who was able to outmaneuver her, and she lost badly. That is by no means the same thing as "completely sabotaging" the mission.

[Smaug with OCD]

As a Nemesis-controlled agent overall Id say. Nemesis invested a metric f*ckton of energy and resources on that scheme, fought the Hunt and even fielded an actual Walker for it.  All it would have take for Nemesis to Win the Day was for Murphy to Not Pull the Trigger at the end.  Or even to simply Miss, as humans do.  I have to think Nemesis would have played that card if it could have.

Stop thinking so small. If Nemesis had been in control of Murphy, she wouldn't have simply missed or not pulled the trigger. She would have aimed at Mab herself... probably. New's genre savvy-ness has been rather lacking once you know what to look for.


Also, as for Murphy's development: The idea of her taking up one of the coins has been mentioned once or twice(or more) throughout this thread. I'm actually kind of hoping this happens. Before you come after me with the pitchforks and torches, hear me out... please? We have had a lot of character arcs throughout the series that can best be described as heart-wrenching. Most of them, however, have had good endings. Morgan was allowed to die doing what he believed in, even after a life of bitterness. Susan's story was horrifying, but she was allowed to die protecting her child and fulfilling the goals of the Order of Saint Giles. Michael got his happy ending, even if it was a bit traumatic, and his story probably isn't over yet.

But, so far, the only utterly, truly tragic story has been Lilly's. She never wanted power or riches or war. She wanted a husband and a family. She didn't get it, not even close. So, the question I'm asking: Could we be in for another tragedy with Murphy? Might she - as Harry has done so many times - pick up some new and horrible power out of a desire to protect the people she sees as her responsibility. Yes, it isn't her job to safeguard them anymore. But, has she made peace with that? I doubt it. She was also told in Small Favor by Dresden that he had refused a coin. Might she think she could do the same, or could Nicodemus spin her a tale of "We are fighting to save the world?" As much as I love Murph as a character, I don't want her to become the Dresden team's Lois Lane, and I feel a tragic ending - however undeserved, but entirely realistic if written properly - would be better than being the weakest link.

[DonBugen]

Cold Days is one of my favorite books, next to Skin Game, Proven Guilty, and Turn Coat.  I know the novel pretty well.

My concern isn’t Karrin’s entrance, but her exit.  Karrin tells Dresden that he’s a factor against having a relationship.  She says verbatim that he scares the holy loving f*** out of her, and that he’s already changed into something different due to the Winter Mantle.  She’s scared that part of her is down with the changes and that if he changes more, and that she’s scared of becoming a monster, too, due to his influence.  Granted, this conversation is much warmer and closer than I’m making it sound, but it’s all honest things that weigh on her heart.

“You’re saying that the problem is you think I could go bad,” I said.
“I know you could,” she said.  “Anyone can.”

Murph also reiterates her fear of dying long before Dresden, that the two of them have such different lifespans, and that Molly is presumably a better fit for him.  The age difference has always been a big issue, and all she sees in Dresden is another disastrous relationship.

This is the jump-off point from the end of Cold Days.  And in the beginning of Skin Game, she’s agreeing to follow him into the underworld to perform an act of burglary alongside Nicodemus Archleone,despite the fact that Dresden makes it clear that he's keeping secrets from her and needs her to trust him completely.

I just don’t see how she really could go from this fear and concern to Skin Game, where she just blindly trusts Harry and works alongside terrorists and mass-murderers.  Yes, her talk with Butters does kind of show that she’s just decided to blindly trust that her friends aren’t turning into monsters.  But it also shows that it’s been a hellish year, and Butters’ fears aren’t unfounded.  In fact, they’re the logical conclusion from the evidence since Cold Days.  I just don’t buy that Karrin would have immediately changed her tune not only on her fears of Dresden losing control, but also of her own insecurities in a relationship, all during a mission in which she does nothing to contribute to Dresden’s success and everything to stop it.

Mr. Death, I know, this is crazy, paranoid, and really doesn’t make much sense compared to your reasoned arguments.  I know that everything you’re saying is far more likely and is much more in-line with Karrin’s character.  But I just can’t shake this feeling.  Call me a cynic, call me mad, but the change seems a little too much like Luccio, who would never have pursued a relationship with Harry if she wasn’t being influenced by something else.  Maybe all of this change is just the fear of losing Dresden again.  Maybe. 

[LordDresden2]

Yeah, that's always been my biggest argument against Murphy being a traitor. As Harry's most trusted companion, she has had soooooooo many opportunities to completely screw over the side of reality. But every action she's taken has been to help Harry defend reality. In Cold Days alone, there are six or seven points where, through simple inaction, Murphy could've handed the game to the Outsiders and not even blown her cover.

That she didn't pretty much clears her entirely.

That depends, though.

I agree that it's deeply improbable, that Murphy is a traitor.

It's also improbable, but not as improbable, that the blonde woman Harry is associating with is not really the real Karrin Murphy, that at some point along the way she was possessed/replaced.

Improbable, but not totally impossible.  Yeah, there have been lots of chances to betray Harry that were passed up, but that isn't proof, because whether those were good chances from the enemy POV would depend on the 'why', which we don't know.  Also, if Karrin has been replaced, a lot would depend on exactly when she was replaced, and by what.  Same deal if possessed.

Now, as for the unlikely factor, how long has it been since Karrin was around Mouse?  Most forms of replacement/possession/mind warping would set Mouse off (though we can't say with Nemfection).  Likewise, she's been inside the Carpenter property, most supernatural nasties can't dare dream of trying that.

About the only halfway likely way Karrin could be a supernatural nasty would be if whatever is there is only sometimes there, if you see what I mean.  Something that comes and goes.

[LordDresden2]

I think Murphy's role moving forward is to be Harry's only close associate without some fairly serious mystical power or protections.

She's shaping to be one of the few vulnerabilities he has, something that can drive him to act irrationally or a hook for the bad guys to pull him along. Molly, Eb, Thomas, Butters, Ivy, the Alphas can look after themselves, Michael and Maggie have serious 24/7 bodyguards. I can't see her agreeing to be wrapped in cotton wool and kept safe. Karrin has some serious friends and isn't defenseless but looks like Harry's closest friend and most likely target all wrapped up together.

Which is precisely why so many people have a hard time seeing Karrin staying in a major story role without something giving way.  Either JB will have to change Karrin, or change the world she lives in, or her role in the story...or put her on a bus/kill her.

As for Karrin's pride...that's part of the issue too.  I'm not sure it would be in character for Karrin to let herself be 'protected' all the time...and yet refusing to let herself be protected could easily make her a Liability.  Karrin is not Lois Lane, and could never be content to be Lois Lane...but her current situation looks dangerously close to forcing her in that direction unless something changes.

If something were going to throw Karrin completely off the rails, though, I think it might be something out of left field, not something directly to do with Harry.  There's a whole side of Karrin's life and emotions we rarely see:  the relationship with her family, her brother-in-/ex, her little sister/rival/replacement, the Chicago PD.

What does Karrin's family think of her choices? What do they know about them?  Do her brothers see her as a failure?  The girl who couldn't cut it in the boys' game?  A victim?  A heroine?  Does her family know much about her relationship with Marcone?  Are they aware that they are more-or-less under Marcone's protection?  If so, what do they as a cop family think of that?

Heck, Karrin's career fail could easily burn her brothers, too, whether they know the full truth or not.

Have we heard if Rich and Lisa have a kid yet?  If so, what does Karrin think of that?  Etc.

I could easily imagine problems from that direction finally driving Karrin over the edge, and it coming as a shock to Harry and Co. because they aren't part of that side of her life.  Remember, all we know of Karrin is what we see through the eyes of Harry Dresden.  Such first-person perceptions are always incomplete.

[Mira]

Which is precisely why so many people have a hard time seeing Karrin staying in a major story role without something giving way.  Either JB will have to change Karrin, or change the world she lives in, or her role in the story...or put her on a bus/kill her.

As for Karrin's pride...that's part of the issue too.  I'm not sure it would be in character for Karrin to let herself be 'protected' all the time...and yet refusing to let herself be protected could easily make her a Liability.  Karrin is not Lois Lane, and could never be content to be Lois Lane...but her current situation looks dangerously close to forcing her in that direction unless something changes.

If something were going to throw Karrin completely off the rails, though, I think it might be something out of left field, not something directly to do with Harry.  There's a whole side of Karrin's life and emotions we rarely see:  the relationship with her family, her brother-in-/ex, her little sister/rival/replacement, the Chicago PD.

What does Karrin's family think of her choices? What do they know about them?  Do her brothers see her as a failure?  The girl who couldn't cut it in the boys' game?  A victim?  A heroine?  Does her family know much about her relationship with Marcone?  Are they aware that they are more-or-less under Marcone's protection?  If so, what do they as a cop family think of that?

Heck, Karrin's career fail could easily burn her brothers, too, whether they know the full truth or not.

Have we heard if Rich and Lisa have a kid yet?  If so, what does Karrin think of that?  Etc.

I could easily imagine problems from that direction finally driving Karrin over the edge, and it coming as a shock to Harry and Co. because they aren't part of that side of her life.  Remember, all we know of Karrin is what we see through the eyes of Harry Dresden.  Such first-person perceptions are always incomplete.

True...

This is the jump-off point from the end of Cold Days.  And in the beginning of Skin Game, she’s agreeing to follow him into the underworld to perform an act of burglary alongside Nicodemus Archleone,despite the fact that Dresden makes it clear that he's keeping secrets from her and needs her to trust him completely.

I just don’t see how she really could go from this fear and concern to Skin Game, where she just blindly trusts Harry and works alongside terrorists and mass-murderers.  Yes, her talk with Butters does kind of show that she’s just decided to blindly trust that her friends aren’t turning into monsters.  But it also shows that it’s been a hellish year, and Butters’ fears aren’t unfounded.  In fact, they’re the logical conclusion from the evidence since Cold Days.  I just don’t buy that Karrin would have immediately changed her tune not only on her fears of Dresden losing control, but also of her own insecurities in a relationship, all during a mission in which she does nothing to contribute to Dresden’s success and everything to stop it.

Yes, including what she said to Harry about the Holy Sword which wasn't exactly true, she hadn't been appointed their custodian.. To how she felt about being a Holy Knight and why she couldn't be one.. Then not telling him she decided to take the Sword of Faith with her as a concealed weapon..  Says that she doesn't completely trust Harry.. She she says he scares the hell out of her, she is telling the truth.. That she fears he may become a monster, she is telling the truth..   I think she thinks she trusts Harry completely, she told Butters that, but the truth is, she doesn't..  Again I think it goes back to not just her insecurities but the fact that Harry is NOT the same man he was before Changes.. That man she knew well, she learned to trust him and would follow him anywhere.  But this Harry?  No, she doesn't trust him, not completely, her actions in Skin Game says that she doesn't.. 

[Gman]

How do you feel about Murph from Ghost Story onward, with her working in Marcone’s organization, allying with the White Court, and trying to fight the darkness in a far more desperate situation than she’s ever been in before?  Most of what you mention is pre-Ghost Story Murphy.  Do you feel that she’s really the same person?

True, I don’t see her flat-out betraying and trying to kill Harry.  But I can see her suddenly motivated to completely turn against his wishes and sabotage a mission all in a vain attempt to keep him safe.  Oh, wait – that’s already happened.

Nobody just suddenly starts dressing in black and cackling maniacally.  The road to hell is a gentle, gradual slope, and I think that Karrin’s story has always been one of slow self-destruction.  It’s started long before Changes, but everything afterward really kicked things into high gear.  Dresden’s fear of what would happen to her if her shield was taken away seems to be happening.  What’s book 20 going to look like?

EDIT:  Let me just say that I hope you’re right.  I really do want Murph to be Dresden’s strong, stalwart companion; the one who’s by his side through thick and thin, the vanilla mortal with the guts and smarts to take on anything that comes to her.  But I guess I’m getting cynical, and I just doubt it could last.

Murphy worked with Marcone, not for him. Just as the US and the British worked with Stalin against Hitler. Sometimes you can't choose your allies.

[Quantus]

Murphy worked with Marcone, not for him. Just as the US and the British worked with Stalin against Hitler. Sometimes you can't choose your allies.

Agreed.  Marcone was clearly the stronger partner in most respects, but he wouldnt have to cede her territory in exchange for what amounted to advice, as he did (by proxy) in GS. 

[Mr. Death]

Mira, her bringing the Sword along has absolutely nothing to do with her not trusting Harry.

Agreeing to walk into Hades with him? That is trusting Harry.

Agreeing to do so even when it means walking alongside Nicodemus? That is trusting Harry.

Agreeing to do so even when Harry outright tells her that he can't tell her everything about his plan? That is trusting Harry.

Those are the pertinent actions she takes in Skin Game. Her bringing and using the Sword has nothing to do with trust.

And LordDresden2, Cold Days was an endgame. The enemy threw a boatload of its resources at it, and Murphy could've turned the tide in their favor numerous times through the smallest, undetectable actions that would not even have blown her cover.

Besides, what kind of supernatural nasty would keep up the ruse for two years, acting exactly like Murphy would in every way, and not doing anything once that's suspicious?

[Quantus]

Besides, what kind of supernatural nasty would keep up the ruse for two years, acting exactly like Murphy would in every way, and not doing anything once that's suspicious?

Purely a devil's advocate here, but Maeve kept it up for quite a while before anyone suspected.  Aurora too, likely. 

[Mr. Death]

Purely a devil's advocate here, but Maeve kept it up for quite a while before anyone suspected.  Aurora too, likely.

Positions were way different. Both of them were rulers, and rulers don't tend to be questioned or looked at too closely by their followers. How many kings and queens get away with all kinds of outlandish shit because they're wearing the crown and will smite anyone who questions what they're doing?

The people who would know what to look for (Mab and Titania) did know that something was wrong because they were acting wrong.

Maeve's deception in particular depended entirely on people assuming she couldn't lie. Maeve was a terrible liar who only got away with it because people assumed it was literally impossible for her to lie. I mean, look at the conversation in Proven Guilty -- Fix's immediate reaction to what Maeve said is "she's lying." The only reason he believes her is because Dresden points out she is incapable of lying, and if you read the conversation now, she's giggling like a schoolgirl at the ability to lie. She not only doesn't have a pokerface, she's gleefully reveling in telling a direct lie to Harry and Fix's faces.