Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)

[DonBugen]

I think it’s at least possible, though, for Karrin to be something of a sleeper agent.  Remember: Dresden was, technically, a Denarian for four novels and never once drastically screwed things up for the Home Team.  Not everyone is as stubborn and immovable as Dresden is, but it’s worth noting that having a supernatural brain-dwelling parasite doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to do what it wants.  The fact that Karrin did not act in Nemesis’ best interest on the island is not unflinching proof that she’s not influenced by something.

Look at it this way:  IF Karrin is Nemfected (which is a big IF – there’s a bunch of things out there that will give Power for influence) then it’s important to note that we have no evidence at all that Nemesis works in such a way that it has complete control over a person against their will.  Lea wavered back and forth between personae.  Cat Sith struggled and fought against the intruder.  Maeve could be reasoned with, and treated her infection as a gift that gave power.  The infected seem to have the ability to give up their will.  Reclaiming will which has once been given seems to be a herculean task, but not impossible.

In her desperate bid to protect Chicago when Dresden was seemingly dead, she became an ally and employee of John Marcone in his Brighter Future Society organization, and commonly allies with creatures who think that humans are just delicious.  Her old allies are getting injured and seriously hurt left and right.  Is it so crazy to think that, if offered, she wouldn’t have picked up another weapon in order to do what needed to be done to save others?  Especially if the one offering made it plain that whatever dark power being taken up would have no more influence over her than she allowed?

I think it’s at least possible.  And if true, than it makes her reunion with Dresden in Cold Days even more compelling:  because rather than speaking to him as an ex-cop who’s seen a lot of people go down that left-hand path, she’s speaking to someone who’s in the same exact precarious position that she’s in, and giving him the same advice that she’s trying to live by.  Remember, Karrin told Dresden at the end of Cold Days that she works with a lot of monsters these days.  What if one of the monsters was internal?

Yeah, it’s a WAG.  But someone’s bound to be a traitor, and Karrin would be one of the biggest and most painful blows to Dresden, other than maybe Eb or Thomas.  And while Ebenezer is still definitely the most suspicious and most likely to be a secret traitor, Karrin definitely has the potential.

[Quantus]

Can N ever interfere with a love fueled action? Such things, in a complex web of metaphysics in the DF related to real world beliefs ect, ect. Shortened, Love is one of those higher 'thoughts' that of itself is almost a choice. I'd be willing to state that without an almost but by itself I could see some argument, but with faith and hope, less so. All three of those are choices from the core of our being. Choosing to love unconditionally or at personal sacrifice, choosing to have hope, choosing to have faith in pretty much anything. That's why those things are champions of freewill under the KotC. They aren't the direct result of stimulus, but how we ourselves choose to process that stimulus. As such, I don't think anyone can override those. Some proof in Lae trying to remove the memories surrounding Susan's love, but couldn't remove it itself(least not without a deal) As Michael said, key word in sword of faith is faith, so it's the power itself with the uhh.. power itself.

There short answer is that we dont know, we know almost nothing of Nemesis's capabilities or limitations.  So far we only know that it can pass via Objects (Lea), via direct infection (Cat Sith), and that a subject needs to be willing to be cured by Mab.  Besides that we've been told that Nemesis cannot infect Angels because Angels are too "absolute". 

There are plenty who doubt whether Humans even /can/ be Nemfected, on the basis that only Fae have been shown so far (that we know of).  I personally think the Black Magic Taint is in fact Nemesis (or some other Outside agency) but it takes cumulative Choices (Ie willing uses of Black Magic) to build up to a full Nemfection. 

That being said, If a mortal can be Nemfected and If a Nemfected Mortal can fight Nemesis, Hope/Faith/Love are the top three most likely catalysts, and "the greatest of these is Love".  It would make all kinds of thematic sense, Id say.

[Mira]

No, Harry was never a Denarian because he never accepted the coin.  Yeah Lasciel did influence him and he used hell fire, but he never fully gave in, it was never a partnership..  In the end Harry changed Lasciel's shadow as Lasciel fell in love with him and she became Lash..

[RobReece]

Wasn't there a WoJ about the Librarians thinking all magic is evil with a capital 'E' and as a result, they were partially behind Murph's career crashing and burning because of her friendship with Dresden? I unfortunately don't have the time to look up if my memory is accurate or not(I have a road trip in two hours), so I shall politely invoke the quote gods and request: Could you please find it for me, oh mighty and powerful lords of the obscure quotes? Masters of the arcane confirmations by Jim! Most devoted fans of the Butcher's work! Your humble servant begs your aid, and provides a shameless bribe in the form of internet cookies!

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I remember basically the same thing that you mention, I don't remember if it specifically mentions the Librarians, but definitely some persons way up the authority chain did not like how cozy Murphy was with an admitted wizard and found her guilty by association.  But I don't remember if I saw it on a video here or at a signing I went to... 

Shecky, do you recall anything like this?

[jonas]

It would make all kinds of thematic sense, Id say.

That's my bag man yea

[Mr. Death]

My biggest problem with the "someone must be a traitor" thing -- aside from literally everyone in Harry's inner circle having proven themselves time and again to be totally on his side -- is that the suggestion that someone could be a traitor comes from Lily, who got all her information from Maeve, who was an agent of Nemesis and therefore had every motivation to lie her frigid butt off and sow dissent among her enemies.

If there is a traitor among Harry's crew, it'd make a lot more sense for Maeve to get Lily to tell Dresden he's safe.

On the other hand, if there is not a traitor among Harry's crew, then telling him there is one is a great way to start putting wedges between people.

[Kindler]

My biggest problem with the "someone must be a traitor" thing -- aside from literally everyone in Harry's inner circle having proven themselves time and again to be totally on his side -- is that the suggestion that someone could be a traitor comes from Lily, who got all her information from Maeve, who was an agent of Nemesis and therefore had every motivation to lie her frigid butt off and sow dissent among her enemies.

If there is a traitor among Harry's crew, it'd make a lot more sense for Maeve to get Lily to tell Dresden he's safe.

On the other hand, if there is not a traitor among Harry's crew, then telling him there is one is a great way to start putting wedges between people.

Mirrors my thoughts pretty well. I do think that there is a high probability of conflicting loyalties, but not outright betrayal. Thomas having to make bad choices during the course of the Oblivion War, Molly obviously having to fulfill her role as Winter Lady, Billy choosing his wife and daughter over Harry—that kind of thing.

The only one who doesn't really have a chance for any conflicting loyalty at all is Murphy. She's the least likely candidate to turn on Harry, at least now. Her family is (presumably) estranged and/or dead (I'm assuming that Jim's "Murphy's funeral" comment refers to her mother, and Karrin and her sister don't get along, especially after she married her ex-husband), her friends and allies on the force aren't doing much for her anymore (considering she has to ally herself with someone like Marcone rather than feed information directly to SI)... pretty much the only thing she has to hold on to is Harry and company. He's the one who brought her into all of the conflicts she participates in now, so it's not even as though she'd need to keep secrets from him, like Thomas does.

The only motivation she'd have to turn on him would be a feeling of inadequacy compelling her to seek a power-up that changes her personality, and I really, really doubt she'd do it willingly. Especially not after the mental invasion that she still has PTSD over.

[Rasins]

It'd be really cool if Mirror Mirror revealed any traitors.

[Quantus]

Mirrors my thoughts pretty well. I do think that there is a high probability of conflicting loyalties, but not outright betrayal. Thomas having to make bad choices during the course of the Oblivion War, Molly obviously having to fulfill her role as Winter Lady, Billy choosing his wife and daughter over Harry—that kind of thing.

The only one who doesn't really have a chance for any conflicting loyalty at all is Murphy. She's the least likely candidate to turn on Harry, at least now. Her family is (presumably) estranged and/or dead (I'm assuming that Jim's "Murphy's funeral" comment refers to her mother, and Karrin and her sister don't get along, especially after she married her ex-husband), her friends and allies on the force aren't doing much for her anymore (considering she has to ally herself with someone like Marcone rather than feed information directly to SI)... pretty much the only thing she has to hold on to is Harry and company. He's the one who brought her into all of the conflicts she participates in now, so it's not even as though she'd need to keep secrets from him, like Thomas does.

The only motivation she'd have to turn on him would be a feeling of inadequacy compelling her to seek a power-up that changes her personality, and I really, really doubt she'd do it willingly. Especially not after the mental invasion that she still has PTSD over.

I think all of that is beside the point here.  If Nemesis can simply Replace an ally, possess them into a perfect infiltrator, their past or current motivations, and any past Trust, is inherently suspect.  It's playing on the Red Scare Witchhunt Mindset: ANYONE can be(come) a traitor at any Time, which undermines the very concept of earned Trust. 

And I think /That/ was the value to Nemesis via Maeve via Lily telling Harry about it all.  She didnt finger anyone specific, and in particular didnt try to draw a specific line of "Your inner Circle is Safe" vs "Your Inner Circle is Suspect".  She just described a situation where innately Trust cannot survive, planting a hell of a powerful Seed of Distrust. 

[Rasins]

I think all of that is beside the point here.  If Nemesis can simply Replace an ally, possess them into a perfect infiltrator, their past or current motivations, and any past Trust, is inherently suspect.  It's playing on the Red Scare Witchhunt Mindset: ANYONE can be(come) a traitor at any Time, which undermines the very concept of earned Trust. 

And I think /That/ was the value to Nemesis via Maeve via Lily telling Harry about it all.  She didnt finger anyone specific, and in particular didnt try to draw a specific line of "Your inner Circle is Safe" vs "Your Inner Circle is Suspect".  She just described a situation where innately Trust cannot survive, planting a hell of a powerful Seed of Distrust.

And the Mothers unwillingness to even name the Enemy helped to cement Harry's distrust.

[DonBugen]

I’m not saying that there must be a traitor because of the Ladies’ speech with Dresden in Cold Days.  I’m saying it from the Doylist perspective.  It would be boring for there not to be anyone with a hidden agenda.  People are never what they seem; some to a greater degree than others.  And I’m not saying that I think that Karrin is some sort of hidden dark terror; she could be as much of a traitor to Harry as Luccio was under Peabody’s influence.  And she is suspicious to me for three reasons – first, because Harry’s never soulgazed her (and thus Harry still avoids eye contact and thus would not notice if suddenly she Changed, triggering a new soulgaze); second, because her actions are completely and totally loyal without reservation; and third, because Harry cares for her arguably more than any other character, other than his daughter.  I doubt that Jim can show restraint and not make Harry suffer for that.

Eb makes more sense to be the traitor because it fits the archetypal Hero’s Journey, the death of the mentor – or, the death of the man Harry thought he was – and his story has huge holes.  He openly admits that he’s hiding things from Harry, who is strangely OK with this.  He organizes a strange shadow organization whose membership Harry is kept ignorant of ‘for his own safety.’  His emotional threats in Changes allude to the fact that he’s done really, REALLY dark things and expects the same from others.  And no one (to my knowledge) has ever corroborated on the “Blackstaff is a White Council role” story that Eb feeds Harry when Kincaid outs him.  If Harry didn’t have his crazy hatred of Kincaid and his hero-worship of Eb, he’d probably hear the other side of the story.  But he doesn’t.  Suspicious.

But this is a thread about Karrin and Peace Talks, and here I go again touting my tinfoil hat on off-topic stuff.  I have a feeling that Karrin will get into the thick of things in Peace Talks, and not from the sidelines.  Being a main force in the BFS, I could possibly see her using her connections to get involved as a vassal of one of the signatories of the accords:  Baron Marcone.  Crazier things have happened.

I predict that if Karrin takes an aggressive, dangerous stance in Peace Talks despite her handicap, then she’s probably going to die before the BAT.  Maybe Mirror Murphy will replace her.  That’d be interesting.

On the other hand, if she plays it cautiously or has a minor role – maybe with Harry and Maggie, or giving support a la Turn Coat – I suspect that she’s likely influenced by something and will be a traitor or plant.

[Mr. Death]

I think there's plenty of other exciting plot threads and events happening in the series that it's not by any stretch "boring" without adding a traitor subplot that, frankly, just plain doesn't fit with the character.

It'd be like making Captain America a Hydra agent all along.

[Quantus]

It'd be like making Captain America a Hydra agent all along.

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[jonas]

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That's some wicked shit man...

[DonBugen]

But Jim has left clues that someone’s going to suddenly surprise us with more power than they ought to have.  Not just because of the existence of Nemesis, but also because of the suspicious disappearance of Thorned Namshiel’s coin.  Someone took it, and it’s a thread that’s been left unresolved to this day.

A long recurring theme in DF is that ill-gotten power is immensely satisfying and ultimately corrupts.  It’s not just seen from the villains, like the hexenwulfen or Slate or Grevaine or Cowl or Sells or Lea or Maeve.  It’s also a constant internal for the protagonists.  Harry deals with fighting the dark parts of his soul.  Molly, too, fights the pull of black magic.  Susan had to undergo intense training in order to control the horrible urges that her ‘condition’ gave her, and ultimately gave in.  Thomas’ existence is defined by it, and he even gives in after being forced to indulge to survive by the Skinwalker. 

Maybe it would be out of character for Captain America to suddenly turn, but Murph is no Captain America.  She’s already made a lot of very questionable choices, and is in the position of trying to grab every straw she can in order to protect Chicago, her main driving goal.  She’s already made the wrong choice for the right reasons at least twice since Harry’s return, and she isn’t the same person she was back in Changes.  I’m afraid for her.  I don’t think she has the same fortitude of will right now to be able to withstand temptation the way that Dresden did with the coin, and she’s extremely vulnerable.