Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)

[Mira]

Not to be too ominous or paranoid, but… are you so sure that Murphy is still Murphy right now?

You have a point.. 

Yeah, I disagree completely. Karrin has been one of the most accepting people about Harry's changes, together with Michael and Molly. I think you are reading your own feelings about Murphy into her actions

Has she really?  No, there is distrust from Cold Days on...

[nervousenergy]

Not to be too ominous or paranoid, but… are you so sure that Murphy is still Murphy right now?

I don't think she is, though in the normal PTSD human sense.  To reiterate:  She trained in physical combat for years with Odin's crowd (not going to try and spell it without a reference at hand ;-)) and came up short.  She focused her whole life on being an cop and had that taken from her.  She tried to take the moral high ground in taking possession of one of the Holy Swords and saw it broken to bits on her actions.  She may have some permanent disability from this last fight. 

People don't just walk away whole and unchanged from shattering events like that.  Everything she's based herself on has been brutally taken from her.

[Quantus]

I don't think she is, though in the normal PTSD human sense.  To reiterate:  She trained in physical combat for years with Odin's crowd (not going to try and spell it without a reference at hand ;-)) and came up short.  She focused her whole life on being an cop and had that taken from her.  She tried to take the moral high ground in taking possession of one of the Holy Swords and saw it broken to bits on her actions.  She may have some permanent disability from this last fight. 

People don't just walk away whole and unchanged from shattering events like that.  Everything she's based herself on has been brutally taken from her.

Just curious, what are you referring to here, Came Up Short how?

[magnuskn]

Has she really?  No, there is distrust from Cold Days on...

There is much more acceptance and trust, though. Compare and contrast with Butters.

[DonBugen]

I just can't shake off the feeling that someone in Dresden's crew is more than they seem - either infected by Nemesis, or holding a Coin, or even just a run-of-the-mill traitor. And pre-Ghost Story, Karrin obviously isn't addled, otherwise we couldn't get the short story Aftermath.

But after...

I dunno. She seems to be doing big, major things without seemingly intending to. Especially in Skin Game, where she didn't do a *thing* which helped Dresden.  If not for Uriel's completely unanticipated intervention, she would have effectively sabotaged Dresden entirely - introduced Butters and given him the opportunity to get involved, destroyed a Sword, and lost Dresden the backup he needed.  If Karrin was a traitor, whose #1 priority is keeping under cover, and #2 priority is to sabotage Dresden, this is exactly how she'd act.

Harry should listen more to his subconscious. Maybe when it gave him the dream about Karrin and Lasciel killing him, it wasn't ONLY warning about Lasciel.

[Mira]

There is much more acceptance and trust, though. Compare and contrast with Butters.

  Yes and no, Butters was more frustrated than anything because children were disappearing.  He was also listening to Bob who had ample reason not to trust anyone connected with the Winter Court..  I might add that there is little evidence that Murphy did much to change his mind in that year..  However once the shit hit the fan and Murphy was down, Butters swiftly came around and saw what an ass he had been...  Oh and I might add one reason that incident took place is lack of trust in Harry on Murphy's part...

[Mr. Death]

  Yes and no, Butters was more frustrated than anything because children were disappearing.  He was also listening to Bob who had ample reason not to trust anyone connected with the Winter Court..  I might add that there is little evidence that Murphy did much to change his mind in that year..  However once the shit hit the fan and Murphy was down, Butters swiftly came around and saw what an ass he had been...  Oh and I might add one reason that incident took place is lack of trust in Harry on Murphy's part...

That is simply not true.

It's entirely Butters' distrust of Dresden that creates the incident.

Butters the one who secretly put a tracking and listening device on Dresden.

Butters is the one who thought Dresden was going to turn on them.

Butters is the one who fled to the Swords.

Meanwhile, Murphy is only involved at all because she shows complete trust in Dresden. He comes to her and asks her to walk into Hades with him, surrounded by literal demons and monsters, then tells her that he can't tell her crucial parts of the plan, and she instantly and completely accepts that.

That is complete, unflinching trust.

[Smaug with OCD]

I just can't shake off the feeling that someone in Dresden's crew is more than they seem - either infected by Nemesis, or holding a Coin, or even just a run-of-the-mill traitor. And pre-Ghost Story, Karrin obviously isn't addled, otherwise we couldn't get the short story Aftermath.

But after...

I dunno. She seems to be doing big, major things without seemingly intending to. Especially in Skin Game, where she didn't do a *thing* which helped Dresden.  If not for Uriel's completely unanticipated intervention, she would have effectively sabotaged Dresden entirely - introduced Butters and given him the opportunity to get involved, destroyed a Sword, and lost Dresden the backup he needed.  If Karrin was a traitor, whose #1 priority is keeping under cover, and #2 priority is to sabotage Dresden, this is exactly how she'd act.

Harry should listen more to his subconscious. Maybe when it gave him the dream about Karrin and Lasciel killing him, it wasn't ONLY warning about Lasciel.

There are problems with this, however, at least in reference to Karin being Nemfected. Cold Days and Cold Case dealt heavily with the Outsider forces, and provided excellent opportunities for backstabery. Some Nemesis agents/appendages even try their hand at it. But! On the island, in the final moments, we have Mab present. We have Harry in attendance... and we have a selection of team Dresden. Everyone is in position to take down multiple major players on the side of reality, Karin especially. But she, along with the others present, don't.

Cold Days is similar with Ramirez. Though he wouldn't have been quite as effective, he could have backstabbed Molly before she knew what he was doing. He could have taken her head off from behind with his warden sword and butchered her. She would have - being an immortal - eventually put herself back together. But, it would have taken time. Cold Days showed us that the near future is what is important. We are approaching - if not end game - a major skirmish in the war, and Mab needs all hands on deck. If Molly were taken out... that wouldn't happen. In conclusion!

I suggest that - at least up through Skin Game - everyone present on Demonreach during Cold Days, along with Ramirez - is clean of Nemfection.

That includes Karin.

Thoughts?

That being said, I completely agree that people aren't telling Dresden - and by extension us - everything. And, if there isn't at least one Nemfected individual in Harry's group... I'll eat Harry's hat.

[magnuskn]

That is simply not true.

It's entirely Butters' distrust of Dresden that creates the incident.

Butters the one who secretly put a tracking and listening device on Dresden.

Butters is the one who thought Dresden was going to turn on them.

Butters is the one who fled to the Swords.

Meanwhile, Murphy is only involved at all because she shows complete trust in Dresden. He comes to her and asks her to walk into Hades with him, surrounded by literal demons and monsters, then tells her that he can't tell her crucial parts of the plan, and she instantly and completely accepts that.

That is complete, unflinching trust.

Summed it up perfectly.

[Mr. Death]

There are problems with this, however, at least in reference to Karin being Nemfected. Cold Days and Cold Case dealt heavily with the Outsider forces, and provided excellent opportunities for backstabery. Some Nemesis agents/appendages even try their hand at it. But! On the island, in the final moments, we have Mab present. We have Harry in attendance... and we have a selection of team Dresden. Everyone is in position to take down multiple major players on the side of reality, Karin especially. But she, along with the others present, don't.

Yeah, that's always been my biggest argument against Murphy being a traitor. As Harry's most trusted companion, she has had soooooooo many opportunities to completely screw over the side of reality. But every action she's taken has been to help Harry defend reality. In Cold Days alone, there are six or seven points where, through simple inaction, Murphy could've handed the game to the Outsiders and not even blown her cover.

That she didn't pretty much clears her entirely.

[jonas]

Yeah, that's always been my biggest argument against Murphy being a traitor. As Harry's most trusted companion, she has had soooooooo many opportunities to completely screw over the side of reality. But every action she's taken has been to help Harry defend reality. In Cold Days alone, there are six or seven points where, through simple inaction, Murphy could've handed the game to the Outsiders and not even blown her cover.

That she didn't pretty much clears her entirely.

Only as an implicit traitor, though. not a subvert or simply 'influenced' badly at times.

[deflated]

I think Murphy's role moving forward is to be Harry's only close associate without some fairly serious mystical power or protections.

She's shaping to be one of the few vulnerabilities he has, something that can drive him to act irrationally or a hook for the bad guys to pull him along. Molly, Eb, Thomas, Butters, Ivy, the Alphas can look after themselves, Michael and Maggie have serious 24/7 bodyguards. I can't see her agreeing to be wrapped in cotton wool and kept safe. Karrin has some serious friends and isn't defenseless but looks like Harry's closest friend and most likely target all wrapped up together.

It sure looks like at some point Harry will be asking himself why he couldn't prevent <some very bad thing> happening to Karrin. Bonus points if Mab's orders to her Winter Knight are getting in the way. She'll either be dead or they will have reached a point that one or both of them realize that Karrin can't survive being in a relationship with Harry.

[ntribley]

I think the main issue that has to be dealt with is Murphy's sense of purpose. Not only has she lost her position with SI/Chicago PD, which was what had defined her internally as well as externally, she has now caused the unmaking of one of the swords through her own actions. In the privacy of her thoughts, that has to be devastating. A few times now, the supernatural villains of the story have referred to Karrin as the "fallen cop" or the Broken one. Whether that is meant to be just a taunt or whether they see the truth of Karrin on a deeper level, I don't know. Being kicked out of SI was not her fault; she had done nothing wrong in any sense. The sword unmaking was entirely on her. First in appointing herself guardian even after Harry returned, and then of course her actions in Skin Game that caused the Sword's destruction.

As much as I could see her dying and becoming an Einharjar, I agree with those who argue that there has to be a character that tethers the story arc to the mortal world. Murphy has done that up until now. But she needs to regain a sense of purpose within the mortal world. Personally, I would love to see her go FBI, and team up with Tully. That would give her law enforcement purpose again, but on a larger scale than SI. It could also put her in a position where responsibilities would often take her away from Chicago, meaning a relationship with Harry would become harder as well.

The Murphy the Broken persona is getting real old. If nothing changes in Peace Talks, I can easily see Jim bumping her off as just one more point of pain for Harry. But if he does, the story will have completely lost its mortal moorings, which would be a real shame.

[Quantus]

Only as an implicit traitor, though. not a subvert or simply 'influenced' badly at times.

As a Nemesis-controlled agent overall Id say. Nemesis invested a metric f*ckton of energy and resources on that scheme, fought the Hunt and even fielded an actual Walker for it.  All it would have take for Nemesis to Win the Day was for Murphy to Not Pull the Trigger at the end.  Or even to simply Miss, as humans do.  I have to think Nemesis would have played that card if it could have. 

[jonas]

As a Nemesis-controlled agent overall Id say. Nemesis invested a metric f*ckton of energy and resources on that scheme, fought the Hunt and even fielded an actual Walker for it.  All it would have take for Nemesis to Win the Day was for Murphy to Not Pull the Trigger at the end.  Or even to simply Miss, as humans do.  I have to think Nemesis would have played that card if it could have.

Can N ever interfere with a love fueled action? Such things, in a complex web of metaphysics in the DF related to real world beliefs ect, ect. Shortened, Love is one of those higher 'thoughts' that of itself is almost a choice. I'd be willing to state that without an almost but by itself I could see some argument, but with faith and hope, less so. All three of those are choices from the core of our being. Choosing to love unconditionally or at personal sacrifice, choosing to have hope, choosing to have faith in pretty much anything. That's why those things are champions of freewill under the KotC. They aren't the direct result of stimulus, but how we ourselves choose to process that stimulus. As such, I don't think anyone can override those. Some proof in Lae trying to remove the memories surrounding Susan's love, but couldn't remove it itself(least not without a deal) As Michael said, key word in sword of faith is faith, so it's the power itself with the uhh.. power itself.