Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)

[DonBugen]

I don't remember anything about librarians, and I thought I've seen all of Jim's Q&As and read all his short stories, aside from the Butters and the Wild West ones. I haven't read the stories in the DFRPG and hadn't read any of the graphic novels other than the first, so maybe that's where the reference is?

[magnuskn]

Just to be clear, if she goes Valkyrie, she's then a chooser of the dead and she's likely out of the story doing her job elsewhere in the world.

That seems unlikely, since Odin is BFF's with Harry.

[lynde4]

I don't see Murphy coming back if she dies. That she might have a place in Valhalla or in some way in the magical afterlife, yes, but if she dies I don't think she'll be coming back. But then, I'm not writing the series and Jim can and will do what he deems best. He hasn't let me down so far so I don't think I'll be disappointed.

[LordDresden2]

  This ^ I believe you've hit on the most important point, and I totally agree.  Back in Proven Guilty when Harry asked her and she refused, though he was a wizard and her points for refusal that you went over were valid, it may still have worked for the very fact that Harry was very much an ordinary Joe..   He isn't any longer, Murphy understood the Harry of Proven Guilty, she no longer understands him.  Murphy got the power/wizard aspect of Harry, but he still loved Coke and a Burger King, he was just a decent ordinary guy..  Basically he still is that decent guy, but  Harry is the Winter Knight, Warden of Demonreach, a Warden of the White Council, a star child, custodian of the Holy Swords and now keeper of relics of vast power, he can never be the Harry she knew before Changes again. 

I've been rereading the earlier books, and there's definitely a different 'feel' to the Harry/Karrin relationship back then.  The idea of Harry and Karrin getting together feels totally believable, totally plausible, it feels like a natural development...when I reread Summer Knight, or Death Masks. 

I think that period was the natural time window for an H/K romance.  That time window runs through...oh, at least through Proven Guilty, maybe through White Night, but it was starting to close by then.  Things were changing, Harry was changing, Karrin was changing, and their world was changing.

Back in that period, Harry was basically a magically-augmented P.I., and Karrin was a cop.  Their world, or primary zone of action, was the city of Chicago.  (In some ways, I still miss that.)

Things have changed since then.

[Mira]

I've been rereading the earlier books, and there's definitely a different 'feel' to the Harry/Karrin relationship back then.  The idea of Harry and Karrin getting together feels totally believable, totally plausible, it feels like a natural development...when I reread Summer Knight, or Death Masks. 

I think that period was the natural time window for an H/K romance.  That time window runs through...oh, at least through Proven Guilty, maybe through White Night, but it was starting to close by then.  Things were changing, Harry was changing, Karrin was changing, and their world was changing.

Back in that period, Harry was basically a magically-augmented P.I., and Karrin was a cop.  Their world, or primary zone of action, was the city of Chicago.  (In some ways, I still miss that.)

Things have changed since then.

I miss the Harry of the old days as well, the wizard/P.I. is what drew me to the Dresden Files in the first place it wasn't the ordinary run of the mill fantasy.  However he has moved on to a new stage and I, as a reader am ready for him to move on as well.  I think that's why I find his interactions with Murphy in the books post Changes increasingly annoying.  Murphy wants that old Harry back, and he isn't ever going to come back.  She should understand that, she has seen and taken part in enough of Harry's world, but somehow she doesn't.  I think the contrast between Harry's conversations with her verses his conversations with Michael in Skin Game says it all.  Michael accepts the changes both in Harry and in his life, and he also trusts who Harry is in his core being.  Murphy doesn't, that is at the crux of it I think, she plays lip service to trusting him, but her actions/words say different..  I don't think she realizes it yet though, she means well, but all her concern for Harry not being the way he used to be only put an almost unbearable amount of self doubt in Harry.  That is not good, not for Harry given his tasks ahead.   For me that is what is annoying these days about their relationship, her observations and advice for Harry is all based on how his life used to be..  It is kind of like a parent of an adult kid who cannot accept that kid is grown and living a different life now, I believe the phrase is, "You never used to act this way...." 

[Gman]

I don't remember anything about librarians, and I thought I've seen all of Jim's Q&As and read all his short stories, aside from the Butters and the Wild West ones. I haven't read the stories in the DFRPG and hadn't read any of the graphic novels other than the first, so maybe that's where the reference is?

I've only seen the Librarians reference a few times. WOJ is basically they are part of the US Govt that is aware of and deals with the supernatural. Little else I have read.

[jonas]

We could see Dresden Noir lol, basically just shunt the perspective story sideways to a timeline harry never goes big time and stays in Chicago with Murphy lol. Best thing about unlimited possibilities, unlimited potential stories... Jim could make some what-ifs in the same vein as the comics too if he really wanted.

[magnuskn]

Murphy wants that old Harry back, and he isn't ever going to come back.  She should understand that, she has seen and taken part in enough of Harry's world, but somehow she doesn't.  I think the contrast between Harry's conversations with her verses his conversations with Michael in Skin Game says it all.  Michael accepts the changes both in Harry and in his life, and he also trusts who Harry is in his core being.  Murphy doesn't, that is at the crux of it I think, she plays lip service to trusting him, but her actions/words say different..  I don't think she realizes it yet though, she means well, but all her concern for Harry not being the way he used to be only put an almost unbearable amount of self doubt in Harry.  That is not good, not for Harry given his tasks ahead.   For me that is what is annoying these days about their relationship, her observations and advice for Harry is all based on how his life used to be..  It is kind of like a parent of an adult kid who cannot accept that kid is grown and living a different life now, I believe the phrase is, "You never used to act this way...."

Yeah, I disagree completely. Karrin has been one of the most accepting people about Harry's changes, together with Michael and Molly. I think you are reading your own feelings about Murphy into her actions.

[jonas]

Yeah, I disagree completely. Karrin has been one of the most accepting people about Harry's changes, together with Michael and Molly. I think you are reading your own feelings about Murphy into her actions.

Yeah, more like she trusts him but also knows him and the world at large, how it's effecting him at any given point. She trusts, but doesn't wear blinders to him either.

[LordDresden2]

Yeah, more like she trusts him but also knows him and the world at large, how it's effecting him at any given point. She trusts, but doesn't wear blinders to him either.

The thing is, though, that she's still not the Karrin we met back in the early books, and Harry is no longer the young punk of a Wizard, either.  The romantic attraction was always there, and still is, but it no longer feels...well, the attraction feels natural but the idea of them acting on it no longer feels natural to me, not the way it comes across back around Death Masks.  Back then, even when he was with Susan, the Murphy relationship felt more natural than the Rodriguez one.

Now, though...that sense of them together as a natural development, at least for me, is gone.  I still feel in in reread of the older books, but by the time of Cold Days and Skin Game, the idea produces more of an 'It's Too Late', reaction.

Maybe Peace Talks will change my reaction, we'll have to wait and see.

But I suspect that JB will have to do something about Karrin soon, if she's still going to play a major role in unfolding story.  I suspect he'll find it necessary even if he doesn't plan it right now, simply because of the demands of the story.

[jonas]

The thing is, though, that she's still not the Karrin we met back in the early books, and Harry is no longer the young punk of a Wizard, either.  The romantic attraction was always there, and still is, but it no longer feels...well, the attraction feels natural but the idea of them acting on it no longer feels natural to me, not the way it comes across back around Death Masks.  Back then, even when he was with Susan, the Murphy relationship felt more natural than the Rodriguez one.

Now, though...that sense of them together as a natural development, at least for me, is gone.  I still feel in in reread of the older books, but by the time of Cold Days and Skin Game, the idea produces more of an 'It's Too Late', reaction.

Maybe Peace Talks will change my reaction, we'll have to wait and see.

But I suspect that JB will have to do something about Karrin soon, if she's still going to play a major role in unfolding story.  I suspect he'll find it necessary even if he doesn't plan it right now, simply because of the demands of the story.

^^That,

Michael accepts the changes both in Harry and in his life, and he also trusts who Harry is in his core being.  Murphy doesn't, that is at the crux of it I think, she plays lip service to trusting him, but her actions/words say different..

Is a completely different topic than that^
So I'm not really sure what any of that has to do with my post
But since you brought it up... the idea that they'd get together when it 'feels' natural or works best is kind of a video game logic.(Hey, I found a key, bet I find a locked door soon, vice versa) That's not how reality tends to work(I sight empirical personal evidence...) so why do we expect such perfection in action from a story except that it is a story? besides.... DF logic is backwards, if it's a bad time, if it's only good in transition, if it would royally hurt Harry, it can and will happen. I call it, Murphy's Law

[forumghost]

See for me (at least in the context of The DF), "Murphy's Law" sounds like a spin-off about the adventures of the Chicago Justice League.

Or for an alternative title:

Law and Order; Supernatural Victims Unit

[raidem]

I prefer to have Murphy take an exit but come back disguised as something else.  Something mabish via time shenanigans.

Murphy at arctic tor in pg, and on demonreach in cold days both put her centered at pretty significant sidhe queen affairs.  That is not to mention that she rode with the wild hunt near the leadership of it.  She also has increasing links to vadderung via training with einhejaren.  We now know he, as kringle, is of winter. I wonder if another vessel is being readied in case of some peculiar happenstance.

I believe there was some who about queen succession rules, etc.  And how Molly was able to fit into them.  The jist I got is there are the rules or at least expected rules until jim changes them.

[Mira]

I prefer to have Murphy take an exit but come back disguised as something else.  Something mabish via time shenanigans.

Murphy at arctic tor in pg, and on demonreach in cold days both put her centered at pretty significant sidhe queen affairs.  That is not to mention that she rode with the wild hunt near the leadership of it.  She also has increasing links to vadderung via training with einhejaren.  We now know he, as kringle, is of winter. I wonder if another vessel is being readied in case of some peculiar happenstance.

I believe there was some who about queen succession rules, etc.  And how Molly was able to fit into them.  The jist I got is there are the rules or at least expected rules until jim changes them.

Problem with all those incarnations for the returned Murphy, is she would then no longer be Murphy.

[DonBugen]

Not to be too ominous or paranoid, but… are you so sure that Murphy is still Murphy right now?