WAG on murphyonic effect

[Griffyn612]

Very.  That would indicate a level of Absolute control over Magic Itself that would be terrifying.  Especially if it's been used to intentionally out Wizards (to their DOOOOOM), and to Limit their Choices and Free Will, which is the fundamental hallmark of the Good Guys.  If the Gods themselves want Mortals to Fall, then they are all just plain screwed, full stop.

It doesn't seem any more terrifying than Mab extending winter through her mere presence on Earth.  The Sidhe have a vast level of control over daily human lives.  And that control would seem to be based on aspects of reality being associated with them.

If the aspect of magic is associated with Hecate (and other mantles possessed by the Sidhe), then it seems logical that they could exert just as much control on that as they can the weather.  Or, at least as much control as they have, given their level of influence over the aspect.

All in all, we're not talking about the Sidhe having enough control to cut magic off completely.  We're just talking about Mother Winter having enough control (and pettiness) to push out side effects to magic use.

It's just too convenient that wizards are hampered with such limitations without there being an inciting factor for them.  If wizards still suffered from boils and spoiled milk, I'd say it's no big deal; the Murphyonic field was always in place, and they only just realized it in the modern age. 

But since it's changed, and in a potentially purposeful manner that successfully alienates them from the rest of mortal society, I say nay, it's not natural.

[Quantus]

It doesn't seem any more terrifying than Mab extending winter through her mere presence on Earth.  The Sidhe have a vast level of control over daily human lives.  And that control would seem to be based on aspects of reality being associated with them.

If the aspect of magic is associated with Hecate (and other mantles possessed by the Sidhe), then it seems logical that they could exert just as much control on that as they can the weather.  Or, at least as much control as they have, given their level of influence over the aspect.

All in all, we're not talking about the Sidhe having enough control to cut magic off completely.  We're just talking about Mother Winter having enough control (and pettiness) to push out side effects to magic use.

It's just too convenient that wizards are hampered with such limitations without there being an inciting factor for them.  If wizards still suffered from boils and spoiled milk, I'd say it's no big deal; the Murphyonic field was always in place, and they only just realized it in the modern age. 

But since it's changed, and in a potentially purposeful manner that successfully alienates them from the rest of mortal society, I say nay, it's not natural.

Mab was able to extend Winter on a very local level, but she doesnt have anything close to global control (and certainly not that level of casual discretion).  It's a wildly different thing, to my mind, to say that Hecate (or any single deity of Magic) has blanket control to dictate how Magic, specifically Mortal Magic works on a global scale, and most especially when they then exercise that power to intentionally make Mortals better Prey. 

Anyone that could make that sort of absolute change could also, for instance, declare that Mortal Magic cannot summon Outsiders. Or even that anyone else can; so I really hope they are on the 'Good Guys' side (ie. pro-free will).

[Mira]

So one of the things that's pretty universal is magic's effect on technology.   As Harry puts it, any tech after WWII gets affected, esp. electronics.

We also know from WoJ that magic didn't always affect technology, that Harry doesn't quite understand how things work, etc.

So here's the WAG:

What if the actual cause of the effect is the radiation put off by the first atomic bombs?   After all, Low background steel is a real thing (used for geiger counters).

However it isn't blanket in how it affects electronics,  it may blow up a computer, but someone standing next to Harry wearing a modern pace maker or hearing aid isn't affected..  Nor do the I-phones in their pockets instantly melt, and no they are not always turned off when not in use..    Billy can drive Harry around in their new state of the art SUV, but if Harry drives it, it falls apart.. 

[dspringer1]

It is a truism of the Dresden universe.  Every creature has weaknesses.   The Fey do (iron), the vamps do (sunlight or true love), loup Garou have inherited silver, etc.   Wizard's weakness vs technology is just their weakness. 

If this is a universal law, then it cannot be assigned to someone as weak as Mab (in the grand scheme of things...)

[jonas]

However it isn't blanket in how it affects electronics,  it may blow up a computer, but someone standing next to Harry wearing a modern pace maker or hearing aid isn't affected..  Nor do the I-phones in their pockets instantly melt, and no they are not always turned off when not in use..    Billy can drive Harry around in their new state of the art SUV, but if Harry drives it, it falls apart..

Most those point can be explained under, as 'spirit callers'(not entities, more primal spirit of 'creation/elements) plus the natural order of magic shouldn't Interfere with Free Will means the more inside the aura of another person something is, the less it will naturally effect it without direction. Taking it out and holding it takes a phone away from direct contact with a large mass(like body heat transfer) to a smaller surface. The car is pretty simple, Harry chills and tries not to do anything. Driving is an emotionally charged experience more often than not. I mean Chicago traffic? Sheesh surprised he doesn't blow even his old beater every ten minutes. Pretty close though now that I think about it

[Quantus]

There's also a simple yet massive difference in scale.  Binder can use a cell phone and looks middle-aged while having been alive for over a century.  Molly could not so much as use a phone or iPod and she's on the low-end of raw power on the Council. 

[jonas]

It is a truism of the Dresden universe.  Every creature has weaknesses.   The Fey do (iron), the vamps do (sunlight or true love), loup Garou have inherited silver, etc.   Wizard's weakness vs technology is just their weakness. 

If this is a universal law, then it cannot be assigned to someone as weak as Mab (in the grand scheme of things...)

Is it a weakness though? Consider, if you get enough practitioners all over world wide(say 3-4) then Technology becomes obsolete, NOT the other way around though. So, weakness or...?

[raidem]

I have the WAG that Murphy gets inserted into a time loop to take the place of Mab.  And perhaps even a Mother Murphy possibly getting inserted for one of the Mother's.  Then we have a Murphyonic irony where the effect is in part due to either Murphy.

[Quantus]

Is it a weakness though? Consider, if you get enough practitioners all over world wide(say 3-4) then Technology becomes obsolete, NOT the other way around though. So, weakness or...?

Not going to happen unless the Wizard-to-Vanilla ration shifts pretty hard, and by then it would have moved on to some other effect.

 But the original theory proposed was that all these effects (Murphionic effect currently, but the Fire and Milk and Warts issues previously) where all put in place specifically to make Wizards easier to identify, that the Fae "are limiting mortal practitioners any way they can".

[jonas]

Not going to happen unless the Wizard-to-Vanilla ration shifts pretty hard, and by then it would have moved on to some other effect.

Instead of throwing me another hypothetical for us to argue about, what about just the singular point made? Wizardy trumps technology, not the other way around.

But the original theory proposed was that all these effects (Murphionic effect currently, but the Fire and Milk and Warts issues previously) where all put in place specifically to make Wizards easier to identify, that the Fae "are limiting mortal practitioners any way they can".

That would imply a being capable of altering magic and how it interacts with mortals itself. Kinda steps on the toes of the woj magic has no 'consciousness' connected to it. I see no other way a being could take such control over the very fabric of mortal magic itself. I mean the idea it used to be controlled by an entity gets in a loop hole, but actively defines it? If anything TWG and his order of business seems to take precedent upon magic, especially when you compare mortal lawbreakers with those immortals that define the balance.
I think my theory covers all those things you mention, except fire, am I missing a passage on fire? Milk, warts, technology...fire?
*all those things at their historical points of entry were defined by a belief or superstition based in an idea behind bad luck even the bug in the proverbial machine.

[Quantus]

Instead of throwing me another hypothetical for us to argue about, what about just the singular point made? Wizardy trumps technology, not the other way around.

Calm down, Im not deflecting, Im just loosing track of what point you are trying to make. 

So in that specific instance the population is not going to be able to reach the point where all Science goes out the window (what you describe, correct?) due to a global Murphionic blanket.  Certainly not in the 3000-sih years that Magic can be expected to retain issued with technology.

That would imply a being capable of altering magic and how it interacts with mortals itself. Kinda steps on the toes of the woj magic has no 'consciousness' connected to it. I see no other way a being could take such control over the very fabric of mortal magic itself. I mean the idea it used to be controlled by an entity gets in a loop hole, but actively defines it? If anything TWG and his order of business seems to take precedent upon magic, especially when you compare mortal lawbreakers with those immortals that define the balance.

I...think that was essentially my same point.  The WOJ about magic not having a controlling consciousness is good additional support, not an angle Id considered.

I think my theory covers all those things you mention, except fire, am I missing a passage on fire? Milk, warts, technology... fire?

It's from the original WOJ that talked about the effects changing, and also in GS

Dragon-Con @2:50
As technology advances, will wizards become marginalized?
It sort of depends on where magic goes.  Magic wasn’t always screwing up post WW2 tech.  Before WW2 magic had other effects.  It sorta changes slowly over time, and about every 3 centuries it rolls over into something else.  At one time, instead of magic making machines flip out it made cream go bad.  Before that magic made weird molls on your skin and fire would burn slightly different colors when you were around it.  I do mention this in Ghost story (in passing).  It’s not really aware or something like that, but it is something that changes along with the people who use it. 

Three hundred years ago, magical talents screwed up other things—like causing candle flames to burn in strange colors and milk to instantly sour (which had to be hell on any wizard who wanted to bake anything). A couple of hundred years before that, exposure to magic often had odd effects on a person’s skin, creating the famous blemishes that had become known as the devil’s mark. Centuries from now, who knows? Maybe magic will have the side effect of making you really good-looking and popular with the opposite sex—but I’m not holding my breath.

[Rasins]

Yeah, I don't think it's so much a directed thing as much as the weakness for any "group".  As someone said, anyone with power has a limitation. Fae - Iron, Vamps - sun/love, Mortal practitioners - murphionic effect.

[Quantus]

Although the flip side is that in the last few decades at least the Murphionic effect has become a big part of the Cultural Denial of the vanilla world:  the more they rely on technology to offer "proof" of what exists, the more the lack of technological "proof" appears to Prove the Absence in the collective mind. 

[jonas]

Calm down, Im not deflecting, Im just loosing track of what point you are trying to make.

I am

So in that specific instance the population is not going to be able to reach the point where all Science goes out the window (what you describe, correct?) due to a global Murphionic blanket.  Certainly not in the 3000-sih years that Magic can be expected to retain issued with technology.

I am slightly confused. I just meant if the population turned wizards overnight, say an Aleran like sister world migrates to the DF and all of them can use magic, inexplicably bringing this excess to the masses already alive here, then tech isn't going to remain relevant to most of civilization. It becomes obsolete in the face of wizardy. Not vice versa.

I...think that was essentially my same point.  The WOJ about magic not having a controlling consciousness is good additional support, not an angle Id considered.
It's from the original WOJ that talked about the effects changing, and also in GS

Oh cool, something to research on

[Quantus]

I am slightly confused. I just meant if the population turned wizards overnight, say an Aleran like sister world migrates to the DF and all of them can use magic, inexplicably bringing this excess to the masses already alive here, then tech isn't going to remain relevant to most of civilization. It becomes obsolete in the face of wizardy. Not vice versa.

In that sort of instance I entirely agree, assuming that Magic didnt find some other thing to differentiate on, and allowing for technological advances that could theoretically combat the Murphionic effects (like how the Raith's can afford lighting systems that can survive a Wizard's Duel. 


What threw me for a loop was that I was still addressing Griff's theory that Hecate and/or the Sidhe had specifically engineered the Murphionic field to limit the capabilities of mortal practitioners (which I consider unlikely).  I missed the topic jump to the hypothetical "All Mortal are Wizards" concept and so lost track of the breadcrumbs when we jumped to a new hypothetical. 

On that topic, I have to real reasoning but I tend to think that if All mortal were Wizards, the effect would shift to something else (barring transitional time).  Or, if Magic and Tech had evolved side-by-side there would be a lot less internal conflict and/or the global impression that Magic and Science are innately antagonistic, so there'd either be No murphionic effect, or it would be something unrelated to tech.  But as I said I dont have a great argument for it.  Closest thing I can think of is the whole Fae Hate Iron theory as it being an issue with legacy opinions that Iron is symbolically  UnNatural, I see this as possibly a similar mechanism.