Bob, Butters, and the White Council...

[Rasins]

I'm betting that Bonnea will get some negative looks from the Council, and Harry is going to have to defend her.

I think Bob would only have to point to EB to show that it's not HIM they are looking for.

[LordDresden2]

  And now he also has C) He's the side-kick of a full-time Knight of the Cross,

Good point. :lol:  That does potentially change everything.

[Paviel]

Has WoJ ever said anything about relations between the White Council and the Knights of the Cross? I don't think we've ever seen anything on that subject in the books.

In general they seem to share the same goals, so I can't see any serious conflicts between them. But at the same time, I wouldn't expect the White Council to take too kindly to a Knight's use of a spirit of intellect that should have been destroyed long ago.

[Quantus]

Has WoJ ever said anything about relations between the White Council and the Knights of the Cross? I don't think we've ever seen anything on that subject in the books.

In general they seem to share the same goals, so I can't see any serious conflicts between them. But at the same time, I wouldn't expect the White Council to take too kindly to a Knight's use of a spirit of intellect that should have been destroyed long ago.

I dont know of anything specific.  They seemed on good enough terms in PG when Michael saved their butts, but such circumstances lead to that. I dont know of any long-term relationship, but I dont know of any long-term relationship with the Knights as a whole aside from the Church. 

In general the Knights seem to get a lot of respect from nearly everyone (even Binder), but they change often enough and work almost entirely independant, so I suspect they get the benefit of the doubt on being "The Good Guy" in any given situation, but are still judged individually as they come and go, and I doubt there's anything formal.  I do note nobody argued too hard against Harry starting a war to save a Sword, or at least nobody argued about that part of it, so I suspect they all respect the Role they play, if not always the individual in that role.  And Im quite sure that sometimes the council has goals or priorities that do not align with the Knights, so conflict is certainly possible.  And if Michael is correct, the Original Merlin had something to do with the Swords in the early days, so Langtry and/or McCoy might know some interesting things about it. 

[Rasins]

I'd say Langtry's reaction to his appearance at Molly's trial was pretty indicative of them knowing about the KotCs.  What will be interesting is how much Arcane magic Butter's will continue to use now that he's got a sword.

[Quantus]

I'd say Langtry's reaction to his appearance at Molly's trial was pretty indicative of them knowing about the KotCs.  What will be interesting is how much Arcane magic Butter's will continue to use now that he's got a sword.

Yes and no.  I think it shows they know of the Knights in a general sense, but Langtry didnt know the current ones enough to know Michael by sight, which I think is telling.

[Rasins]

Yes and no.  I think it shows they know of the Knights in a general sense, but Langtry didnt know the current ones enough to know Michael by sight, which I think is telling.

I read that as they just don't cross paths that often, which makes sense when you figure the different purposes.

Speaking of which, We know that the Wouncil is there to limit power, that could be read as limiting free-will.  Wouldn't that be contrary to TWGs pursuit of and support of free-will?

[Quantus]

I read that as they just don't cross paths that often, which makes sense when you figure the different purposes.

Harry had never crossed paths with Papa Wraith and he was known on sight, and Im pretty sure it's happened other times too.  We arent talking about knowing every the Council (or for that matter all the various "usual suspects" the Wardens are expected to know on sight), we're talking about knowing the three Ordained  Champions of the Almighty *insert ominous chorus music* and in Michael's case, the Knight whose sword Langtry went to War over.  McCoy recognized him as a habitual associate of Harry's, but it surprises me that a man as meticulous as Langtry wouldnt stay informed.  It's not like Michael was new to the job or anything either. 

Speaking of which, We know that the Wouncil is there to limit power, that could be read as limiting free-will.  Wouldn't that be contrary to TWGs pursuit of and support of free-will?

Nope, Mortals can Exercise their own Free Will by restricting others all they want (slavery, murder, etc) just like mortal servants of Fallen Angels can freely attach a heavily protected Casa Carpenter.  Heaven may or may not like it, and may or may not Judge them for it in their afterlife, but it only gets involved if it's a Non-Mortal interfering with Free Will Causality.  Otherwise, Humans are Free to be controlling Jerks to each other. 

[Rasins]

Harry had never crossed paths with Papa Wraith and he was known on sight, and Im pretty sure it's happened other times too.  We arent talking about knowing every the Council (or for that matter all the various "usual suspects" the Wardens are expected to know on sight), we're talking about knowing the three Ordained  Champions of the Almighty *insert ominous chorus music* and in Michael's case, the Knight whose sword Langtry went to War over.  McCoy recognized him as a habitual associate of Harry's, but it surprises me that a man as meticulous as Langtry wouldnt stay informed.  It's not like Michael was new to the job or anything either. 

Nope, Mortals can Exercise their own Free Will by restricting others all they want (slavery, murder, etc) just like mortal servants of Fallen Angels can freely attach a heavily protected Casa Carpenter.  Heaven may or may not like it, and may or may not Judge them for it in their afterlife, but it only gets involved if it's a Non-Mortal interfering with Free Will Causality.  Otherwise, Humans are Free to be controlling Jerks to each other.

Point 2, good point. 

Point 1 above, I can totally see Langtry knowing that there are only three, and who they are, even though there are only 2 at the moment.  However, IIRC, Michael was not in his usual crusaders garb.  And having another GUY step through with the other members of the senior council, he just wasn't that prepared, in that frame of reference, to think it might be a KotC.

Knowing that there are only 2 active knights, asking which sword would be appropriate as well.

[Quantus]

Point 2, good point. 

Point 1 above, I can totally see Langtry knowing that there are only three, and who they are, even though there are only 2 at the moment.  However, IIRC, Michael was not in his usual crusaders garb.  And having another GUY step through with the other members of the senior council, he just wasn't that prepared, in that frame of reference, to think it might be a KotC.

Knowing that there are only 2 active knights, asking which sword would be appropriate as well.

It's not like Machael and Sanya look at all alike, or that any of the other swords have looked anything like a Crusader sword (at least for the last half-century or more).  Langtry personally could see Michael and Amoracchius, was told Michael's name and that he's a Knight and he Still had to ask which sword!  If he got a file on the Knights, he didnt read it. 

[Rasins]

It's not like Machael and Sanya look at all alike, or that any of the other swords have looked anything like a Crusader sword (at least for the last half-century or more).  Langtry personally could see Michael and Amoracchius, was told Michael's name and that he's a Knight and he Still had to ask which sword!  If he got a file on the Knights, he didnt read it.

Oh my goodness, Langtry is Nemfected!

[Zaphodess]

It's not like Machael and Sanya look at all alike, or that any of the other swords have looked anything like a Crusader sword (at least for the last half-century or more).  Langtry personally could see Michael and Amoracchius, was told Michael's name and that he's a Knight and he Still had to ask which sword!  If he got a file on the Knights, he didnt read it.

Well, you can't read them all.

That Langtry didn't recognize Michael probably says more about his priorities than about Michael's standing in the supernatural world.

[Quantus]

Well, you can't read them all.

That Langtry didn't recognize Michael probably says more about his priorities than about Michael's standing in the supernatural world.

When you are talking about a major figure like The Merlin, those two things get pretty close to the same thing, no?

[isoycrazy]

As a supernatural big wig, I would have expected Langtry to know who the current KotC are, but he might not have seen a recent photo of Michael.  He could also have been testing Harry, seeing what Harry knew of the situation and if this was some plot on his part.  Feigning ignorance to make a person tell more information is a common interrogation tactic.  Colombo loved it.  If Harry didn't know who this Knight was, Langtry might have played things differently.

As for Harry saving the Sword, I recall the argument against Harry wasn't that he saved the Sword, it was his own stupid actions caused it to be in peril to begin with.

[Quantus]

As a supernatural big wig, I would have expected Langtry to know who the current KotC are, but he might not have seen a recent photo of Michael.  He could also have been testing Harry, seeing what Harry knew of the situation and if this was some plot on his part.  Feigning ignorance to make a person tell more information is a common interrogation tactic.  Colombo loved it.  If Harry didn't know who this Knight was, Langtry might have played things differently.

I dont disagree that it might be a reasonable tactic in general, but I dont think that it was at all the case here.   Lets look at what he had and what he gained:  He knew it was a Knight, Knew the sword shape/type, knew michael wasnt a giant black-skinned Russian or tiny Okinawan man, knew that Harry Knew and his Name and that he was a Knight, knew that the little girl he'd just ordered executed was the daughter of said aforementioned Knight.

What could possibly be gained by feigning ignorance, he got nothing additional other than the word "Amoracchius" from Harry.  If that's a move forward, I have no idea what direction he's going