Sword on Sword

[Rasins]

The following partial quote is from another thread, but I have a question for the ranks here ....

They establish the teams. Mab is working against whoever tried to use Molly as a weapon (against the Knights among other things). The GK too. They are helping Harry or rather using him. Molly is ideally placed to cause a lot of damage if she became full warlock on the BC side. Even if the WK caught her and executed her, it would be useful. Imagine Michael's reaction if he found out they beheaded Molly. There would be dead wizards lying in that warehouse, among them maybe the Merlin and Morgan.

The Fetches didn't execute Glau because he was a loose end on their side. That's Harry's assumption then. They killed him as soon as they found out he was BC.

Okay, we know that Morgan's blade has an enchantment that is specifically designed to cut through other magical enchantments/constructs.

What would happen if Morgan and Michael HAD come to blows.  Would Morgan's blade have cut through Michael's faith-fueled Amoracchius? 

My first thought is that TWG fuels the sword, so, no way would Morgan's magic over come it.  Then again, the magic in Morgan's sword is specifically designed to break enchantments.

[Zaphodess]

When I pictured that scenario in my mind, I actually wondered whether Michael would still be using Amoracchius according to its purpose. If he did, Morgan wouldn't stand a chance. Amoracchius is powered by TWG, the Wardens swords are really cool, but they are mortal magic.

It would depend on several factors:
- Do Morgan and the Merlin count as innocents there? I highly doubt it.
- What would be Michael's motivations? Rage, a desire for revenge etc don't count as saintly feelings
- Are wizards a legit target for the Swords? Some history might suggest it. It's unclear what the exact circumstances need to be.
- If Michael would act in non-accordance with his duty, would the Sword get destroyed or he simply be killed?

[jonas]

yes, he'd be getting vengeance, not revenge. He'd offer them a way out too, foreswearing their power and giving up their judgements of others. But how many crusty old wizards would be willing to completely give up who and what they are? He'd end up decimating the council command structure. He could also just invade Edinburg with the proviso, flee or die. As I see it, as long as he's not robbing others of choice, he's good. The rest of his reasoning will align with his nature, that of someone Uriel thought worthy to loan out his grace to.

[groinkick]

Comparing a KoTC Sword to a sword used by Wardens is like comparing the power of Mab to the power of a wizard

[Snark Knight]

The holy swords aren't powered by an enchantment, so warden blades aren't going to unmake them that directly. On the other hand, if Michael was driven by vengeance rather than 'on mission', Amoracchius is just a piece of metal.

My guess is they'd just clash as material swords in that case. Although if Michael rendered his sword vulnerable by acting improperly, Morgan's charged attack (I'm thinking of the technique he used to cut through trees in a single blow when he went after Harry in DB) might still affect it.

[jonas]

The holy swords aren't powered by an enchantment, so warden blades aren't going to unmake them that directly. On the other hand, if Michael was driven by vengeance rather than 'on mission', Amoracchius is just a piece of metal.

My guess is they'd just clash as material swords in that case. Although if Michael rendered his sword vulnerable by acting improperly, Morgan's charged attack (I'm thinking of the technique he used to cut through trees in a single blow when he went after Harry in DB) might still affect it.

re·venge.
NOUN
1.the action of inflicting hurt or harm on someone for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands

ven·geance
NOUN
Infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed; retribution.

Similar actions with totally different motivations. I'm quite sure TWG has no problem when someone mete's out much deserved punishment. See Murphy the mouth pieces damning statement in CH. It wasn't even her, making the statement. She was just acting in alignment with Will that presented itself.

[Smaug with OCD]

Michael himself has said that their job isn't to punish - and he does use that word specifically, if my memory serves(sorry, don't have my copy of Death Masks available at the moment) - when first explaining the Knights' purpose to Harry. They are supposed to save. And besides, Warrior shows us that Michael wouldn't be acting calm and thinking through the consequences were he to walk in on the execution of his daughter(and presumably Harry).

[Anubissama]

The Swords have a specific purpose and a specific set of powers.

They come into action when they are against a supernatural power that infringes on mortal Free Will or are up against a supernatural power that acts against its intended nature. Wizards don't fall under any of this categories so the Sword wouldn't give Michael any powers and he would end up a splatter on the wall.

And even if by some miracle (he, he, see what I did there) he would still get the Sword's power it doesn't make him invincible. The Sword's power is to level the playfield on the supernatural front. It would still be Michael vs Morgan, both skilled sword fighters, one of them with almost a century of experience. I give that one to Morgan, so again Michael would die, even with Sword support, which it wouldn't give him in the first place.

[jonas]

let's just quote a small portion..

Destroyers of faith, of families. of lives, of children!

And then point out last time his daughter was in danger of execution TWG timed his arrival to be there first. You really think if Langtry decided to do it anyway that the powers that be would simply abandon him? Do you think, since that's precisely what Harry has accused the council of doing, killing children. Taking away choice and standing in self righteous judgement over others, including people we know were innocent, that TWG doesn't have them on his shit list? The only difference is he has one of his 'toe the middle line' agents going to take care of it. What do you think will happen when Harry stands up to zee council? Your seeing the personal connection and assuming in his actions Micheal would be flawed or TWG wouldn't support his actions, but I don't see it any other way. Care to give any reasons why it wouldn't go down that way besides you believe his actions to misalign with said will? Or why it would? Being angry someone threatens your family isn't the unshakable sense of purpose of protecting said family. Nor is it always mindless rage in response to someone who does. Directly after giving Nic a choice, Micheal was able to condemn him as his time and attack him all out. See no reason why such an attitude wouldn't transfer over. Really underestimating both Micheal and TWG I think.

[Anubissama]

Because the whole potential situation is mortals using their Free Will to make decisions.

Free Will is a bitter sweet gift, and this are the downsides of it, humans can be wrong. If Merlin made the Free Will decision to execute Molly TWG wouldn't intervene the same, as he wouldn't stop Michael from drawing the Sword and attacking the Council for it. But the Sword wouldn't have any power besides being a sword since he doesn't use it with a) clean intentions (vengeance) b) in the way the Sword are supposed to be used (in protection of mortal Free WIll)

This whole situation simply doesn't fall under the purview of things where TWG and Angel intervene. The precedence where they do are clear and established, infringement on mortal Free Will by supernatural powers, or supernatural powers going against their intended purpose.

Yes TWG stacked the chances in Mollies favour (Dresden's belief, the arrival of the rest of the SC saved by Michael) but in the end, this is all he can do. In the end, it is mortal will against mortal will. TWG, Angels, and the Swords have nothing to do in this conflict.

[jonas]

infringement on mortal Free Will by supernatural powers, or supernatural powers going against their intended purpose.

Wizards are a supernatural power? One not intended to dictate the fate of others, too. They're using authority gotten from supernatural power to dictate the fate of corrupted young men and women. Given credence only by the perceptions of having said power in their grasp to choose from. Power just gives one more choices(unless supernaturally inhibited, of course), which includes unfortunately infringing upon others if you so wish.
*as per what I understand of being mortal in the DF it includes the ability to always choose. Death takes away that choice. So unless they really are full on Warlock/something else inside. They aren't gone in the way the council dictates.

[Anubissama]

Wizards are a supernatural power?

They are Mortals with Free Will that happen to have supernatural powers by birth. What they do with them falls under their Free Will choices so TWG stays out of it.

Michael is alone if he attacks the Council for killing Molly, and again even IF the Sword would work it only blocks the supernatural powers. He still goes up against Morgan a much more experienced sword fighter and would lose.

[jonas]

They are Mortals with Free Will that happen to have supernatural powers by birth. What they do with them falls under their Free Will choices so TWG stays out of it.

Michael is alone if he attacks the Council for killing Molly, and again even IF the Sword would work it only blocks the supernatural powers. He still goes up against Morgan a much more experienced sword fighter and would lose.

Does he now? Seems to me that's already proven untrue multiple times in Harry's story. Ignoring all the other stuff that Is set up for harry by happenstance(random miraculous coincidences that enable victory), anytime Mr. Dresden has genuinely prayed, those prayers were taken into consideration. Seems to me TWG and the swords are a lot bigger than minimizing the damage of 30 silver coins. Quite the opposite, the purpose of the coins is probably to balance the mere existence of the swords.(which did exist pre-TWC)
*Oh, and they don't get them from birth, they inherit them sure. But they aren't born with them. They chose to develop them or use them. Don't see why using them for any normal definition of 'evil' or refined definition of taking away choice would be any different than any other kind of normal 'sinning' against someone. and if it is... why that would make it an unbalanced force in nature O.o

[Smaug with OCD]

Molly chose to go before the council. She chose to seek their judgement. Michael, despite wishing otherwise, would have no power to protect his daughter in the same way he couldn't save Hanah Ascher from the Gate of Fire because she chose to try and pull the lever. She wasn't an innocent, trapped in a situation she had no hand in creating.

That being said, no. I don't expect God to have Michael in a situation where he'd have to watch his daughter die. That's kind of the whole point of Faith, isn't it? Especially in that context? Doesn't Harry even comment on that? That is why the original question was a "what if" statement.

[jonas]

So I suppose this boils down to, What if Langtry had decided to execute Molly anyway? Would TWG have covered Michael in an attempt to free his daughter? Put in that Dresden promises to escape with her directly, Morgan follows and Eb an GK chose to stand back. Michael Vs Langtry seems like the match up for the month heh heh...