Evocation/Elements

[jamescagney22]

So throughout the books evocation is said to be quick and dirty magic, like fire, lightning, and other classical elements. But there has been other forms of magic like the Fomor using Shadows, DuMorne conjuring eels, Denarians and necromancers summoning snakes and spiders that aren't elemental. Are these forms of magic actually in line with the elements, or is evocation more broader then I think it is?

[Quantus]

So throughout the books evocation is said to be quick and dirty magic, like fire, lightning, and other classical elements. But there has been other forms of magic like the Fomor using Shadows, DuMorne conjuring eels, Denarians and necromancers summoning snakes and spiders that aren't elemental. Are these forms of magic actually in line with the elements, or is evocation more broader then I think it is?

Evocation is broader than just the elements, which I think have more to do with Harry's own 5-point magic school/philosophy than anything (kind of like his Blue playdough=defense thing).  As I understand it, magic is generally either Evocation, which is overt and quick and line-of-sight, but includes illusions and conjurations and even arguably some of the necromancy we've seen.  The other half is Thaumaturgy, which at it's core will always have the Small-to-large focus connection, regardless of it's other effects. 

[Mr. Death]

A lot of those guys are also using sponsored magics, like Hellfire. One of the things sponsored magic allows you to do is cast spells that would normally be Thaumaturgy in effect, but with the speed and methods of evocation, so long as the spell is in line with the sponsor.

Binder's summoning, for instance, is much faster than summoning via thaumaturgy, which is likely because he has made some kind of explicit deal with the grey men that lets him summon them so fast.

[Rasins]

Evocation is broader than just the elements, which I think have more to do with Harry's own 5-point magic school/philosophy than anything (kind of like his Blue playdough=defense thing).  As I understand it, magic is generally either Evocation, which is overt and quick and line-of-sight, but includes illusions and conjurations and even arguably some of the necromancy we've seen.  The other half is Thaumaturgy, which at it's core will always have the Small-to-large focus connection, regardless of it's other effects.

Q,

Which category do things like Potions, or the Crystal shield Molly used in SmF all into?

[Phariah]

Q,

Which category do things like Potions, or the Crystal shield Molly used in SmF all into?

I would think they would not be a school of magic like evoc/ thaum.  I would say that they were skills like Harry talks about when mentioning the sashes some wizards wear during one of the wizard meetings. Alchemy/ artificing/ runes/ medicine/ ect.....

[Anubissama]

They are Thaum. It is magic build up over a long time imbued in items via ritual.

[Mr. Death]

They are Thaum. It is magic build up over a long time imbued in items via ritual.

Yeah, those are just enchanted items like Harry's rings or duster.

Potions are potions, which is a subset of crafting in thaumaturgy.

[jamescagney22]

Just a few more questions regarding elemental magic.
1. Does the color of magic have anything to do with its effect, blue fire means its more intense, green fire more acidic properties, etc, or is it all up to the user? In Ghost Story Justin DuMorne had both blue and normal colored fire and I wasn't sure if that was significant or not.
2. Does wind have any sub speciality? For Earth it seems to be Gravity and Magnetism, water, Entropy and Energy Manipulation, fire, temperature control, but I have not seen any examples of any special use of air magic.

[Quantus]

They are Thaum. It is magic build up over a long time imbued in items via ritual.

I wouldnt call that the qualification for thaumaturgy at all, or for that matter assume that all Rituals are thaumaturgy.  The key identifying factor for me is the symbolic link of Thaumaturgy, the voodoo doll element. 

I would think they would not be a school of magic like evoc/ thaum.  I would say that they were skills like Harry talks about when mentioning the sashes some wizards wear during one of the wizard meetings. Alchemy/ artificing/ runes/ medicine/ ect.....

The crystal Id assume is some brand of evocation given that it's a charged object releasing energy directly and in a localized area.  But it's always possible it was built on sympathetic/symbolic principles using the crystal's structure itself as the focus/doll for the barrier. 

Potions Im less sure on, but my best guess is to call it thaumaturgy on the idea that the combination of mundane objects are acting as symbolic stand-in's, as is the case with Thaumaturgy. 

[Mr. Death]

I wouldnt call that the qualification for thaumaturgy at all, or for that matter assume that all Rituals are thaumaturgy.  The key identifying factor for me is the symbolic link of Thaumaturgy, the voodoo doll element. 
The crystal Id assume is some brand of evocation given that it's a charged object releasing energy directly and in a localized area.  But it's always possible it was built on sympathetic/symbolic principles using the crystal's structure itself as the focus/doll for the barrier. 

Potions Im less sure on, but my best guess is to call it thaumaturgy on the idea that the combination of mundane objects are acting as symbolic stand-in's, as is the case with Thaumaturgy.

Rituals are thaumaturgy. Evocation is moving energy on the fly, while thaumaturgy is taking your time and directing it in a ritual. It's not just about the symbolic link.

As the RPG lays out the differences:

In evocation, you summon up your power,
envision the result you desire, and attempt
to control the energy on the fly. Because the
construct is made up only from the caster’s will
and the elements are held solely as concepts in
the caster’s mind, evocation can achieve only
simple effects, with a very good chance of something
going wrong.

By contrast, thaumaturgy sets up the
construct physically and allows the elements
to act as a lens through which the wizard then
focuses his power. Because the spellcaster
doesn’t have to concentrate to keep the construct
in mind (it’s right there in front of him), he
creates a much stronger and more stable effect—
meaning he can focus on achieving effects of
much greater complexity and subtlety. He can
also direct power into the spell gradually, making
it far less likely that something will go awry.

So the difference is not just that thaumaturgy needs a symbolic link (and not all types of thaumaturgy do -- crafting, psychomancy and biomancy are all subsets of thaumaturgy that don't have necessary symbolic links because you're working directly on the subject). The difference is the time and the nature of the constructs involved.

Evocation: Simple, instant energy movement.
Thaumaturgy: Complex, lengthy constructed spells.

[Quantus]

Rituals are thaumaturgy. Evocation is moving energy on the fly, while thaumaturgy is taking your time and directing it in a ritual. It's not just about the symbolic link.

As the RPG lays out the differences:
So the difference is not just that thaumaturgy needs a symbolic link (and not all types of thaumaturgy do -- crafting, psychomancy and biomancy are all subsets of thaumaturgy that don't have necessary symbolic links because you're working directly on the subject). The difference is the time and the nature of the constructs involved.

Evocation: Simple, instant energy movement.
Thaumaturgy: Complex, lengthy constructed spells.

Ill admit Ive always hated the way the first DFRPG modeled (I see it as over-simplified) magic into those two buckets.  While it was a justifiable streamlining of a rules-set it never seemed to fit the books very well, and then broke down as a rule-set when it had to introduce "Evo-thaum" to explain all the various things that never fit well. 

[Mr. Death]

Ill admit Ive always hated the way the first DFRPG modeled (I see it as over-simplified) magic into those two buckets.  While it was a justifiable streamlining of a rules-set it never seemed to fit the books very well, and then broke down as a rule-set when it had to introduce "Evo-thaum" to explain all the various things that never fit well.

It's better to look at it as Evocation is a very narrow thing (instant movement of energy), while everything else is Thaumaturgy, which is just a broader category. In some settings, it's an overall term for any magic (i.e., Discworld's mention of the 'thaum' as the smallest unit of magic).

If you want to look in the regular books, though, Harry refers to hit "dusting for magic prints" spell in White Night as thaumaturgy (or at least, that he's digging through his thaumaturgy tool box to prepare it), and it has nothing to do with symbolic links:

I set the box on the floor and opened it. "I've been teaching my
apprentice thaumaturgy. We have to go out to the country
sometimes, for safety's sake." I rummaged through the box and
finally drew out a plastic test tube full of metallic grains. "I just
tossed things into a grocery sack for the first couple of weeks, but
it was easier to put together a more permanent mobile kit."
"What's that?" Murphy asked.
"Copper filings," I said. "They conduct energy. If there's some
kind of pattern here, I might be able to make it out."
"Ah. You're dusting for prints," Murphy said.
"Pretty much, yeah." I pulled a lump of chalk out of my duster's
pocket and squatted to draw a very faint circle on the carpet. I
willed it closed as I completed the circle, and felt it spring to life, an
invisible screen of power that kept random energies away from
me and focused my own magic. The spell was a delicate one, for
me anyway, and trying to use it without a circle would have been
like trying to light a match in a hurricane.

[Quantus]

It's better to look at it as Evocation is a very narrow thing (instant movement of energy), while everything else is Thaumaturgy, which is just a broader category. In some settings, it's an overall term for any magic (i.e., Discworld's mention of the 'thaum' as the smallest unit of magic).

If you want to look in the regular books, though, Harry refers to hit "dusting for magic prints" spell in White Night as thaumaturgy (or at least, that he's digging through his thaumaturgy tool box to prepare it), and it has nothing to do with symbolic links:

The problem with that is that Thaumaturgy is also fundamentally the Movement of Energy too.  It's how all his tracking spells work for example.  In fact Id argue that ALL magic, with the possible exception of Pure Will actions like gods can do, would qualify as "movement of energy" making that a non-distinction. 

[Mr. Death]

The problem with that is that Thaumaturgy is also fundamentally the Movement of Energy too.  It's how all his tracking spells work for example.  In fact Id argue that ALL magic, with the possible exception of Pure Will actions like gods can do, would qualify as "movement of energy" making that a non-distinction.

I didn't say Evocation was movement of energy. I said it was "instant" movement of energy, though I suppose I should've added, "line of sight" as well. It's moving the elements in the most direct way.

I mean, if you want to get broad enough, literally everything that happens can be classified as movement of energy.

My point was, Evocation is narrow in that it's on-the-fly magic you do right here, right now without setting it up, while thaumaturgy is slower, more complex, carefully directed magic that you need to do some prep work for.

Evocation is throwing a rock because you want it out of the way right now. Thaumaturgy is placing dozens of rocks over the course of the day because you're decorating your garden.