Many Questions on Proven Guilty

[circe]

What we know; 1. Sandra Marling has been working on this horror con for a year.
2. Madrigal, aka Darby Crane, was booked for a year to appear at the horror con. 3. Madrigal is a member of that sub branch of WCV who get off on fear, can't remember their nsmes, 3. The fetches appear and produce all kinds of fear, that had to have been some kind of psychic buffett.

I can't help but think that Sandra was central to all if this, and who was she working for? Madrigal was set up to take the fall, but for what and for who? It had to to have had something to do with the attack on AT.

We know that Madrigal was working for Cowl. Could Sandra be Kumori?

Who could have known a year ago that Molly was going to develop powers?

I feel that Molly was not central to this at all. This was set up for another purpose and she and Harry messed it up in grand style. Someone is really pissed their plans went down the drain. Cowl, maybe.

Of course, now that Molly has developed these powers, it's just perfect that Harry is there to take her on as an apprentice. And, she has definitely attracted the notice of Mab.

[Griffyn612]

I have to say that I'm still unconvinced that Thorned Namsial is the one who was throwing around hell-fire at AT.

Mab seemed convinced.

[jonas]

Mab seemed convinced.

Not by my reckoning, when she get's pissed at Harry right before she leaves it always implied something hugely different.

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She's pissed at Harry because TT Harry flung hellfire at her domain. But, because he's not yet that person she can't yet punish him for a future offence.

Doesn't prove anything of course. But inference from Dresden's perspective as to the culprit is just as untenable  evidence.

[Griffyn612]

Not by my reckoning, when she get's pissed at Harry right before she leaves it always implied something hugely different.

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She's pissed at Harry because TT Harry flung hellfire at her domain. But, because he's not yet that person she can't yet punish him for a future offence.

Doesn't prove anything of course. But inference from Dresden's perspective as to the culprit is just as untenable  evidence.

   “Why?”I demanded. “Why did you want the Denarians
stopped? Why send the hobs to kill the Archive? Why recruit me
to save the Archive and Marcone in the event that the hobs
failed?”
  Mab paused, turned, casually showing off the gorgeous curves
of her calves, and tilted her head at me. “Nicodemus and his ilk
were clearly in violation of my Accords, and obviously planning
to abuse them to further his ambition. That was reason enough
to see his designs disrupted. And among the Fallen was one
with much to answer for to me, personally, for its attack upon
my home.”
   “The Black Council attack on Arctis Tor,” I said. “One of them
used Hellfire.”
   Mab showed me her snow-white teeth. “The Watchman and I,”
Grimalkin mewled for her, “had a common enemy this day. The
enemy could not be allowed to gain the power represented by
the child Archive.”
   I frowned and thought of the silver hand that had batted the
fallen angel and his master sorceries around as if he’d been a
stuffed practice dummy. “Thorned Namshiel.”
   Mab’s eyes flashed with sudden, cold fury and frost literally
formed over every surface of the chapel, including upon my
own eyelashes.
   “There are others yet who will pay for what they
have done,” Mab snarled in her own voice. It sounded hideous—
not unmelodious, because it was as rich and full and musical
as it ever had been. But it was filled with such rage, such fury,
such pain and such hate that every vowel clawed at my skin,
and every consonant felt like someone taking a staple gun to
my ears.
   “I am Sidhe,”she hissed. “I am the Queen of Air and Darkness. 
I am Mab.” Her chin lifted, her eyes wide and white around the
rippling colors of her irises—utterly insane. “And I repay my
debts, mortal. All of them.”

Her reaction, to me, reads as confirmation that Harry's guess was correct.  Why else would the name of the Fallen cause her rage to ignite?

[jonas]

Her reaction, to me, reads as confirmation that Harry's guess was correct.  Why else would the name of the Fallen cause her rage to ignite?

Erroneous answer? The next part is Harry realizing he had offered the very same retribution by going there. The only clue we have as to the purpose of the AT attack comes from nic muttering about a 'survival instinct' to which I assume he meant N and it wanting out of it's entrapment with Lea... Mmm so, are the things that Mab has frozen over actually all fragments of N kept under ice?
Anyway, it's more an idea of what reaction did attacking AT evoke from a timeline perspective coupled with the fact she moves from a convo to indirect topic of "others yet to pay". Granted... she Sidhe, so indirect is her bag, but it went from Harry's singular to Mab's plural pretty fast. She said more in that distinction than otherwise would have been said replying directly to Harry's assertion on a singular individual/duo. Which I don' count the now dead Host as in need of repayment. Harry cleared that debt presumably acting in her name

[Griffyn612]

Erroneous answer? The next part is Harry realizing he had offered the very same retribution by going there. The only clue we have as to the purpose of the AT attack comes from nic muttering about a 'survival instinct' to which I assume he meant N and it wanting out of it's entrapment with Lea... Mmm so, are the things that Mab has frozen over actually all fragments of N kept under ice?
Anyway, it's more an idea of what reaction did attacking AT evoke from a timeline perspective coupled with the fact she moves from a convo to indirect topic of "others yet to pay". Granted... she Sidhe, so indirect is her bag, but it went from Harry's singular to Mab's plural pretty fast. She said more in that distinction than otherwise would have been said replying directly to Harry's assertion on a singular individual/duo. Which I don' count the now dead Host as in need of repayment. Harry cleared that debt presumably acting in her name

I think there's a good chance Mab has Namshiel's coin on ice now.

[jonas]

I think there's a good chance Mab has Namshiel's coin on ice now.

I'm hoping she's not that stupid. What happens when an immortal whom isn't supposed to violate free will entraps a being whos job it is is to actively manipulate said free will? idk man, but Him and especially Lasciel Make me think if they can't be heard one way their allowed to let their presence be felt in another. We keep getting from the various sources how the fallen in the coins are supposed to be out and influencing (always manage to find that church patsy to recirculate them, unless it's always been the same guy...). What happens when that perfect balance of 30 vs 3 is disturbed? Rebalance. Hell.. i'm not so sure that's not why Fearbringer found a bit of a foothold.
Not direct topic but related, I always viewed both the fact Michael took on Outsiders in PG and Murphy saying The sword would be vulnerable in CD right before a walker shows, to mean Angels and outsiders both play in the same 'absolute'  field of play. So one can hurt the other AND vice versa.

[Paviel]

Of course, now that Molly has developed these powers, it's just perfect that Harry is there to take her on as an apprentice. And, she has definitely attracted the notice of Mab.

Molly has had the notice of Leanansidhe since Grave Peril, and probably since long before. I'm not sure how well Leanansidhe's plans meshed with Mab's at the time, but they are both of the Winter Court.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Facts

•   Lilly and Maeve conspired to lure winter into leaving their borders to allow summer to attack the Red Court
•   Maeve slowed time in Winter so that winter armies would not threaten Summer for sufficient time -- such that Summer could attack the Red Court

•   The Red Court did a major attack on the White Council during the events in Proven Guilty – including targeting Luccio’s boot camp (ie – really important battle)

You left one fact out:

• Mab ordered her forces to the border of Summer and she ordered her forces not to attack the Red Court

Why did Mab do that?  Did she make a deal not to attack the Reds?  She also prevented Summer from attacking the Red Court.  Was Mab forced to do this or was she playing some kind of long game, or was it both?  Perhaps Mab was prevented from attacking the Reds per agreement so she set up a conditions so the Red Court would eventually be attacked by Summer, but at a time of her choosing.  Mab keeps her deal and prevents Summer from attacking prematurely.   

About Maeve and Lily.  Maeve was working to gain Lily's trust so she could eventually set up the destruction of both Summer and Winter.  This is fairly well established by events in Cold Days.  I've been thinking about this a lot.  Perhaps Maeve's plan worked better than she hoped it would.  I'm thinking that Maeve didn't expect Harry to survive his encounter with Eldest Fetch at Arctis Tor.  Remember Harry only triumphed because Lily gave Harry access to Summer Fire.  She didn't tell Fix she did so, remember his surprise when Harry described events at Mab's stronghold.  There is no reason to believe Lily would have shared her plan with Maeve, but even if she did, Maeve didn't think very highly of Lily, she may have thought the plan wasn't likely to succeed.  Maeve would have still gained Lily's trust and rid herself of the annoying wizard at the same time.  Instead Maeve was forced to carry out the plan to it's final conclusion.  If she hadn't slowed time at Arctis Tor any hope Maeve had of subverting Lily would have gone out the window.   

My final point is about the attack on Luccio's boot camp.  We have no indication it was carried out by the Red Court.  This could have been a Black Council operation done for motives all its own.  My bet is that Cowl was behind it.   

[jonas]

I think there's a good chance Mab has Namshiel's coin on ice now.

I'm hoping she's not that stupid.

...Dammit Mab. She's been known to do that for the right reasons despite potential consequences, when she hung Slate up to cool off.

[KurtinStGeorge]

...Dammit Mab. She's been known to do that for the right reasons despite potential consequences, when she hung Slate up to cool off.

If Mab has the coin my guess is that she can't hold it forever.  It would be like a football team deciding to play in a basketball league or put it this way, Mab is out of her jurisdiction if she thinks she can hold the coin forever.  She has a score to settle with Thorned Namshiel and any other Denarians who worked with him to attack Arctis Tor, but I'd bet she's limited in what she can extract as retribution.   

[Arjan]

If Mab has the coin my guess is that she can't hold it forever.  It would be like a football team deciding to play in a basketball league or put it this way, Mab is out of her jurisdiction if she thinks she can hold the coin forever.  She has a score to settle with Thorned Namshiel and any other Denarians who worked with him to attack Arctis Tor, but I'd bet she's limited in what she can extract as retribution.   

She will keep the coin longer and safer than the church would have done.

And Thorned Namshiel is the fallen and not a host. Mab has a score to settle with a fallen and she will collect. Thorned Namshiel was out his jurisdiction as well, there is probably a lot she can do.

[lt_murgen]

I have a running theory that "Mirror Mirror" is going to be a return to the events of Proven Guilty, where mirror Harry and normal Harry are manipulating things behind the scenes to keep or change the timeline.

[jonas]

I have a running theory that "Mirror Mirror" is going to be a return to the events of Proven Guilty, where mirror Harry and normal Harry are manipulating things behind the scenes to keep or change the timeline.

MM is gonna be a cross between

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Quantum Leap and Sliders