Many Questions on Proven Guilty

[dspringer1]

All

I know it has been talked about before, but on many levels Proven Guilty does not make sense.  There seemed no reason for the Fetch to get involved and there are all these mysterious events at Arctus Tor.  Given this story is the prime candidate for the “time travel” experience of Harry, I wanted to poke at it.

Facts
•   “Darby” was booked a year in advance to attend the Con – by his lawyer
•   Madrigal (aka – Darby)’s lawyer/flunky was killed by the Fetch
•   Someone killed a bunch of Mab’s troll guards with Hellfire
•   Lilly and Maeve conspired to lure winter into leaving their borders to allow summer to attack the Red Court
•   Mab allowed Harry to recover Molly
•   A portal exists from the theater to Winter
•   The Fetch took Molly to Arctus Tor
•   Maeve slowed time in Winter so that winter armies would not threaten Summer for sufficient time -- such that Summer could attack the Red Court
•   The Red Court did a major attack on the White Council during the events in Proven Guilty – including targeting Luccio’s boot camp (ie – really important battle)
•   Somebody fixed Little Chicago (although this is more evidence of time travel than something relevant to the questions below)
•   Mab could NOT have sent the fetches to kill people at the con.  She is not allowed to do this due to the rules of Fey Queens.  Either someone else gave the command or the Fetches were killing on their own. 

Reasonably Certain
•   The Fetch killed the lawyer to shut him up because he knew things
•   The fetch knew enough about Molly to trick her into inviting them into the house (not a high threshold, but not complete ignorance)
•   The Fetch attacked the theater owner to keep the theater closed – presumably to allow them to feely use the portal
•   Madrigal was set up for some reason – somebody (- or something ) wanted him at the con
•   Molly did her first Black magic just days (or at most weeks) before the events in Proven Guilty – as she did not discover her friend was pregnant until then.
•   Nik was surprised (and very unhappy) to learn that Denarians were involved in the attack on Arctus Tor
•   The Fetch were involved because of orders from the Queen – but which one is unclear

Decent Guesses
•   Molly’s presence could not have easily been predicted without foreknowledge.  Not assuming foreknowledge as foreknowledge is a boring answer. 
•   The Fetch used the beacon that is Molly’s fear casting to enter the mortal world
•   Harry suggested Madrigal was set up to be the patsy to take the blame.  I would argue that Madrigal was set up to be the beacon.  But since Molly ended up being the beacon, Madrigal was thus unneeded.   
•   Thorned Namshiel was involved in the attack on Arctus Tor
•   Nik is afraid that a fallen is nemfected
•   Maeve might have been nemfected, but not so badly that her actions were highly influenced.
•   The Fetch were there for a reason beyond killing people at a con.  They are both spies and assassins after all.  Neither mission seemed to be relevant to what they did at the con. 


Questions
•   Which queen gave orders to the Fetches – or was the Fetch acting on their own?
•   If Madrigal was set up a year in advance, why.  I cannot have been related to Molly’s use of black magic or the battle with the Red Court as neither could have been reliably predicted a year in advance.    If he was set up from the begining, it had to be for another reason. 
•   Was the portal to winter always in the theater --- or did someone create the portal for this purpose?  The first might suggest a longer term plot while the second might suggest it was created by a Winter queen. 
•   Why did Mab not destroy those who killed her guards?
•   Did slowing time in Winter serve some other (less obvious) purpose?
•   When did Maeve and Lilly learn about the attack on the White Council?   Well in advance or only during the events in Proven Guilty? 
•   What else is going on that might justify time travel? 

[robert82a]

Been a while since I've reread Proven Guilty. I don't have any answers, but I rember when the fetch slipped on ice (chapter 29) immediately thinking the fetch might have been infected with Nemesis. The thing lived its whole life in winter. Seemed really weird to me couldn't walk on ice.

[Snark Knight]

•   Mab could NOT have sent the fetches to kill people at the con.  She is not allowed to do this due to the rules of Fey Queens.  Either someone else gave the command or the Fetches were killing on their own.

She can't command specific deaths. But hypothetically, she could command them to visit the mortal world at a particular time and place, and just rely on their naturally predatory nature to get the job done. Though I tend toward Nemesis as a more likely explanation for the fetches behaviour.

•   The fetch knew enough about Molly to trick her into inviting them into the house (not a high threshold, but not complete ignorance)

Actually, no. There's a WOJ that Harry surmised wrong there - Molly didn't invite them in, they just powered through the threshold. Which makes them freaking beastly and/or N-fected.

•   Thorned Namshiel was involved in the attack on Arctus Tor

Not that it argues against Namshiel's presence (nothing says only one attacker used Hellfire), but I would note that Rosanna's absence from SG was also quite conspicuous. Also keep in mind Nic's comment in SmF about being sure one of the two women was "our own Judas".

Personally, my theory is Tessa is the ringleader for 1-3 traitor Denarians, but she's succeeded for the time being in framing Rosanna as far as Nic is concerned.

[Zaphodess]

A couple of other facts and possibilities:

• PG is the book that led Harry and Eb to conclude that there is a conspiracy behind things.
• Molly was probably set up by Sandra Marling, who organized the con and met her at a shelter where she had to do community work. Sandra suggested to Molly that fear can cure drug addiction. There is room for a long-term plan here.
• Think about how Molly is connected to the guys who are working against people using Hellfire.
• The Fetches are Mab's spies too, not just assassins. Given that Mab can't directly order a human's death, it's possible that they were sent to find facts first. A bit of collateral damage is probably not something Mab worries about.
• Mab couldn't order Molly being killed, so she had to do something else in order to remove the potential danger a warlock daughter of a Fist of God would pose if she got recruited by the opposition. Hence the abduction. When Harry showed up to rescue Molly, Mab could be reasonably sure that he would take steps to turn Molly into an asset. Win-win.
• Mab might not have known yet who exactly was working against her.

I personally found PG a lot less confusing once I started to think about Mab's role differently. Harry is assuming she is a puppet-master who always knows exactly how things are going to play out in her favor. If you think of her as being in a corner instead and not knowing everything, her play makes more sense. She had to find out what was going on and who was moving against her.

I also believe that PG was the book where Mab found out that Maeve was Nemfected. She technically betrayed Winter, which she shouldn't have been able to do. Literally.

ETA: The Gatekeeper's note did get Harry on board to help in the fact-finding mission without costing Mab one of the favors. 

[wardenferry419]

Mab was using Harry in the WK role since her own WK was useless.

[ebliss1]

A couple things stand out for me here.

1. The idea that a lot of foreknowledge was required to set all of this up.
2. The Fetches being somehow able to power through the Threshhold of Michael's house - especially given the Angelic protection that we are shown that exists around the house.
3. The long-term effects of this sequence: Harry's awareness of Nemesis, the sudden sowing of doubt among the Denarians, the beginning of the "Molly for Winter Lady" chain of events.

These things sort of say to me: Uriel. He could easily be using these event to maneuver Harry into position, to set up for him a powerful ally (Molly) where before he had an enemy (Maeve), plus he gets to knock the Denarians off kilter by having them turn on one another in suspicion. We know that Uriel likes to plan for the long term and also likes to see how many dominos he can set up to all fall down at the same time.

[Zaphodess]

A couple things stand out for me here.

1. The idea that a lot of foreknowledge was required to set all of this up.
2. The Fetches being somehow able to power through the Threshhold of Michael's house - especially given the Angelic protection that we are shown that exists around the house.
3. The long-term effects of this sequence: Harry's awareness of Nemesis, the sudden sowing of doubt among the Denarians, the beginning of the "Molly for Winter Lady" chain of events.

These things sort of say to me: Uriel. He could easily be using these event to maneuver Harry into position, to set up for him a powerful ally (Molly) where before he had an enemy (Maeve), plus he gets to knock the Denarians off kilter by having them turn on one another in suspicion. We know that Uriel likes to plan for the long term and also likes to see how many dominos he can set up to all fall down at the same time.

I like the idea. It would fit, cause he has the foreknowledge but can't really act directly.

[apgrey]

  There are two things I would like to add here.
  I support Evil Bob as the one who fixed Little Chicago.  I suspect he is able to pass Harry's threshold, and can counter Harry's wards.
  The Angelic bodyguard was a retirement bonus.  It was not there during Proven Guilty.

APG

[jonas]

Which queen gave orders to the Fetches – or was the Fetch acting on their own?
•   If Madrigal was set up a year in advance, why.  I cannot have been related to Molly’s use of black magic or the battle with the Red Court as neither could have been reliably predicted a year in advance.    If he was set up from the begining, it had to be for another reason. 
•   Was the portal to winter always in the theater --- or did someone create the portal for this purpose?  The first might suggest a longer term plot while the second might suggest it was created by a Winter queen. 
•   Why did Mab not destroy those who killed her guards?
•   Did slowing time in Winter serve some other (less obvious) purpose?
•   When did Maeve and Lilly learn about the attack on the White Council?   Well in advance or only during the events in Proven Guilty? 
•   What else is going on that might justify time travel?

1 The Winter Mother did it, Eldest fatch says so 'I have served the queen of air and darkness since before human memory.' but before human memory puts things in the realm of oblivion. Only 2 ways to do that is if original was still around in another form, or died. Either way he's talking about the queen possibly before it was ever part mortal.
*fyi the fetches goal is in their name, fetch.

A fetch is a supernatural double or an apparition of a living person in Irish folklore. It is largely akin to the doppelgänger, and sightings are regarded as omens, usually for impending death.
 
evidently referring to a psychopomp who "fetches" the souls of the dying,

found in two Old English glossaries.[4][5] In both texts, fæcce is glossed for mære, a spirit associated with death and nightmares.

seems to have regarded it as a Latin word, though it is unattested in Latin. Instead, it may be Irish, which could be the origin of the Hiberno-English fetch.[4]

The term "fetch" is sometimes glossed for the Scandinavian fylgja, an animal alter ego in Norse mythology connected to a person's fate, though unlike the Irish concept, the fylgja is almost always female.

They came for Molly and what she'd been doing with magic, they came to balance the scales with Mab's free willed knight in the bullpin.
Notic after he ate her, her 'double' was scarecrow, bringer of fear? this whole book is(also) a joke on Sleepy hallow, Batman, and his villain scarecrow. Darby crane(Ichabod/Jonathon) is set to take the fall for scarecrow, called master of fear but is beaten down by 'batman'/detective Harry Dresden when he has no fear. more stuff so old I can't rememeber. it's a humorous amalgamation.

[ebliss1]

I support Evil Bob as the one who fixed Little Chicago.  I suspect he is able to pass Harry's threshold, and can counter Harry's wards.

True that he could potentially have access to Little Chicago, but WHY would Evil Bob fix it for Harry? This would seem out of character for Evil Bob. Additionally, wouldn't Evil Bob need the free will to decide to take that action? Or are you working on the idea that Evil Bob has a new master/owner and that person wanted Little Chicago fixed?

[Snark Knight]

These things sort of say to me: Uriel. He could easily be using these event to maneuver Harry into position, to set up for him a powerful ally (Molly) where before he had an enemy (Maeve), plus he gets to knock the Denarians off kilter by having them turn on one another in suspicion. We know that Uriel likes to plan for the long term and also likes to see how many dominos he can set up to all fall down at the same time.

Maneuvering Molly toward the Winter Lady role seems a little dark for Uriel. Using angelic foresight to point her towards choices that would have an unforeseen consequence of getting stuck with a mantle that will override her soul seems little different than Lasciel prompting Harry to attempt suicide. Sure, he didn't slip a thought into her head, but it's at least against the spirit of the rules for the guardian of free will.

Plus, up to now Michael's characterization has had his faith as a constant - probably one of the most steady aspects of the series. I'm not sure shaking that - as finding out Heaven had hazarded his daughter's very soul inevitably would - would really be on the authorial agenda this late in the arc.

[dspringer1]

The idea that a lot of foreknowledge was required to set all of this up.

Molly was probably set up by Sandra Marling, who organized the con and met her at a shelter where she had to do community work. Sandra suggested to Molly that fear can cure drug addiction. There is room for a long-term plan here

.

Mab couldn't order Molly being killed, so she had to do something else in order to remove the potential danger a warlock daughter of a Fist of God would pose if she got recruited by the opposition. Hence the abduction. When Harry showed up to rescue Molly, Mab could be reasonably sure that he would take steps to turn Molly into an asset. Win-win.

The ideas above are possible (of course), but someone will have to explain what agenda people had here.  What agenda did Winter Queens have with Molly?   With the Con?  With Sending the Fetch into the mortal world.   Of course you can argue that Molly will be very important 5 years later and thus Molly’s involvement makes everything make sense (sorta not really), but Molly ascension to the Winter Lady is clearly a low probability outcome – and the future is probabilities.  It seems a lot of effort to for very low odds of having a maybe sorta kinda vague impact on a new winter lady.   Molly is related to one of the Knights of the Cross, but that is not Mab's concern even if Mab even knew about this.  And Mab would not help Uriel by killing a bunch of mortals in any case.    So again -- the actions of the Fetch do not make sense given what we know -- and foreknowledge or a plot against Molly (same diff) is a claim that does not seem very strong.   

I personally found PG a lot less confusing once I started to think about Mab's role differently. Harry is assuming she is a puppet-master who always knows exactly how things are going to play out in her favor. If you think of her as being in a corner instead and not knowing everything, her play makes more sense. She had to find out what was going on and who was moving against her.

This could be  real possibility -  but we just do not know what Mab's operation was trying to accomplish.  I doubt it had anything to do with the Con or Molly.  Ditto with Winter Mother's engagement.   

The long-term effects of this sequence: Harry's awareness of Nemesis, the sudden sowing of doubt among the Denarians, the beginning of the "Molly for Winter Lady" chain of events

ah - not seeing it.  Nemesis awareness was much later, doubt among Denarians is a good thing.  This story is the first where Molly begins her path as a wizard and that eventually leads to Winter Lady, but I have written already how unlikely (probability wise) that would have been.  Uriel arranging events to help Harry makes total sense -- he need to learn from Molly.  Molly as winter lady had to be a real long shot.  Uriel plays for long shots of course, but there are many many long shots.  You can just as easily argue that Molly could eventually have been the Merlin and had great influence over the white council.  Again - possible at the point of time where Proven Guilty occurred.   It is only later decisions that cut off that path.   

  I support Evil Bob as the one who fixed Little Chicago.  I suspect he is able to pass Harry's threshold, and can counter Harry's wards.

Have to go with others on this.  Makes no sense.  How would Evil Bob even know about Little Chicago.  Why would Evil Bob help Harry?  How could he do this when good Bob is ALWAYS in the room.      And there is no way he can cross Harry's threshold.  He was never invited and is a spirit.  He is a separate individual from skull Bob. 

The Winter Mother did it, Eldest fetch says so 'I have served the queen of air and darkness since before human memory.' but before human memory puts things in the realm of oblivion. Only 2 ways to do that is if original was still around in another form, or died. Either way he's talking about the queen possibly before it was ever part mortal.

Good logic - I like it. 

Not that it argues against Namshiel's presence (nothing says only one attacker used Hellfire), but I would note that Rosanna's absence from SG was also quite conspicuous. Also keep in mind Nic's comment in SmF about being sure one of the two women was "our own Judas".  Personally, my theory is Tessa is the ringleader for 1-3 traitor Denarians, but she's succeeded for the time being in framing Rosanna as far as Nic is concerned.

Quite possible.   Well thought out.    If you are correct, then we should see Tessa start to make her play soon after the events in Skin Game.  If that does not derange her mind and have the nemfection completely take over, not sure what would.   

[Zaphodess]

The ideas above are possible (of course), but someone will have to explain what agenda people had here.  What agenda did Winter Queens have with Molly?   With the Con?  With Sending the Fetch into the mortal world.   Of course you can argue that Molly will be very important 5 years later and thus Molly’s involvement makes everything make sense (sorta not really), but Molly ascension to the Winter Lady is clearly a low probability outcome – and the future is probabilities.  It seems a lot of effort to for very low odds of having a maybe sorta kinda vague impact on a new winter lady.   Molly is related to one of the Knights of the Cross, but that is not Mab's concern even if Mab even knew about this.  And Mab would not help Uriel by killing a bunch of mortals in any case.    So again -- the actions of the Fetch do not make sense given what we know -- and foreknowledge or a plot against Molly (same diff) is a claim that does not seem very strong.   

I think that Mab didn't know what was going on. Her mission was finding out and reacting. A long con with her all knowing and planning doesn't make sense at all. Which you pointed out in your original post.

Molly was most likely the target of the so-called Black Council. Sandra Marling met her long before PG. She could have recognized her potential as a wizard and that her family connection placed her very well to act against the Knights of the Cross. The Knights are a target the BC acts against, it wasn't a complete coincidence that Michael was there in Grave Peril. Imagine Molly as an undiscovered warlock with her psychomancy fully developed on the side of the BC (Nemfected, maybe with a Coin). There lies the apocalypse.

Mab and the Gatekeeper work more closely together than we knew at the time. I think they had the same information and maybe even decided together to share it with Harry, thus getting him on the playing field. The BC was up to something at that con in Chicago and it involved Black Magic. Nothing specific. Mab didn't know it was Molly at first or she could have done something more directly. Or get the GK to act, he is WC after all. Neither did she have plans to recruit her as a possible Winter Lady at that time. She didn't even know then that she would need one. And dragging her to Arctis Tor might have get her killed or her sanity ripped off her. Mab's first order of business was removing the prize from the hands of the BC, once she determined it was her (or Harry determined for her, he was the one who sent the Fetches right to the source of the black magic). Turning her into an asset instead in the long term by letting Harry take care of her: cherry on the top.

As to who fixed Little Chicago: I think it was the Gatekeeper. It would make sense for him to check on Harry, making sure he wasn't in on it either. He didn't fully trust Harry. His decision to send him the note might have been a test. If he observed him, he could have checked his apartment and lab for signs of suspicious activities. Little Chicago would have been interesting to him from a purely nerdy pov and he might have decided to not let Harry die from a stupid accident before he found out what was up with the young man.

[ebliss1]

As to who fixed Little Chicago: I think it was the Gatekeeper. It would make sense for him to check on Harry, making sure he wasn't in on it either. He didn't fully trust Harry. His decision to send him the note might have been a test. If he observed him, he could have checked his apartment and lab for signs of suspicious activities. Little Chicago would have been interesting to him from a purely nerdy pov and he might have decided to not let Harry die from a stupid accident before he found out what was up with the young man.

This makes the most sense out of all the possible choices. Rashid seems to be the one most inclined to be snooping enough into Harry's life to be aware of LC, and the one with the knowledge and power to get into Harry's lab and fix it.

[wardenferry419]

Let's not forget that Mavra took issue with Michael killing her children. So, killing one of Michael's children would seem appropriate. Sandra Marling has possible ties to Mavra due to Red Cross shelter in BR.