Mab's Plans

[MacPhoenix]

 OK, so I recently went back and reread skin game. We all know that Mab has an important job in the universe, and  Harry and Molly are helping out cause they know and don't have many choices. What we don't know is if Harry and Molly are ever going to get away from Mabs control I.E... the influence of the mantles. So, what I would like to hear from Dresden fandom is if leaving the mantles is even an option, has Jim said anything to elude their eventual escape, and if Harry/Molly ever win free of Winter what then?

[Mira]

OK, so I recently went back and reread skin game. We all know that Mab has an important job in the universe, and  Harry and Molly are helping out cause they know and don't have many choices. What we don't know is if Harry and Molly are ever going to get away from Mabs control I.E... the influence of the mantles. So, what I would like to hear from Dresden fandom is if leaving the mantles is even an option, has Jim said anything to elude their eventual escape, and if Harry/Molly ever win free of Winter what then?

They may get the option at some point, but I doubt they will take it until after the BAT.. The fate of the world trumps their own personal well being..

[dspringer1]

Winter knight is certainly something people can leave as Harry is still mortal.  There is always choice with mortals.  Obvious possibilities include a bargain with Mab/Mother Winter, although true death and resurrection might do the trick (if you can manage it).   I suspect if Harry assumed a true mantle and was no longer mortal, he would be disqualified from being the Winter Knight - which must be mortal.   Winter can also be destroyed, which would end the mantle. 

No idea if Molly has an escape route.  No examples of immortals giving up their immortality.   However, as Mantles can be stolen/taken on Halloween, that implies that a person can "lose" a mantle.  No mantle, no immortality.   No idea if you can lose a mantle and still survive if that is your only mantle, but it is at least a possibility.   Someone also mentioned some statements by JB about one of the queens retiring. I cannot remember the details. 

[MacPhoenix]

I would expect the retired Queen to be Mother Winter. I believe she gave or lost her walking stick to the Councils "Black Mage".

[Snark Knight]

I would expect the retired Queen to be Mother Winter. I believe she gave or lost her walking stick to the Councils "Black Mage".

Per WOJ, the current Mother Winter is the original.

[Quantus]

I would expect the retired Queen to be Mother Winter. I believe she gave or lost her walking stick to the Councils "Black Mage".

What Snark said: Per WOJ the Mothers change by Abdication; Mother Summer has done so once in Human history, Mother Winter never has. 


To the OP: There's been nothing official that I know of. 

I do know of two theories currently that I (personally) think have any meat on them:

1)Harry's Bargains. Per WOJ, that third Favor is still in play, but largley moot because the Winter Knight thing basically gives her the ability to ask infinite favors.  The theory goes that the Last Favor might be used in a case where Harry might need to be sent after somebody that, per the terms of his Knighthood Bargain, she cannot send him after, specifically a Loved one.  So if she needs to send him after Molly or McCoy or Thomas or somebody she cannot order him as her Knight, but she can still ask the Final Favor.  And since the terms of those Three Favors said that afterward he'd be entirely Free of all Sidhe influence, all obligation to Lea and Mab (by the technical wording), the theory is that it might negate bargains made after that including the Knighthood.

2)Tam Lin is a folk character that was mentioned as a previous Winter Knight, and if you read the tale through the lens of the Dresden Files, it seems to boil down to "actions taken at a Wellspring on Halloween won him free of the Fairy Queen's service and made him mortal again".  It's incomplete and non-specific, but the pieces that are there sure fit the proper form.

[Mira]

What Snark said: Per WOJ the Mothers change by Abdication; Mother Summer has done so once in Human history, Mother Winter never has. 


To the OP: There's been nothing official that I know of. 

I do know of two theories currently that I (personally) think have any meat on them:

1)Harry's Bargains. Per WOJ, that third Favor is still in play, but largley moot because the Winter Knight thing basically gives her the ability to ask infinite favors.  The theory goes that the Last Favor might be used in a case where Harry might need to be sent after somebody that, per the terms of his Knighthood Bargain, she cannot send him after, specifically a Loved one.  So if she needs to send him after Molly or McCoy or Thomas or somebody she cannot order him as her Knight, but she can still ask the Final Favor.  And since the terms of those Three Favors said that afterward he'd be entirely Free of all Sidhe influence, all obligation to Lea and Mab (by the technical wording), the theory is that it might negate bargains made after that including the Knighthood.

2)Tam Lin is a folk character that was mentioned as a previous Winter Knight, and if you read the tale through the lens of the Dresden Files, it seems to boil down to "actions taken at a Wellspring on Halloween won him free of the Fairy Queen's service and made him mortal again".  It's incomplete and non-specific, but the pieces that are there sure fit the proper form.

While all of that may be true, times are different now...   There is the BAT to consider, Harry is also star born, I believe in time he will accept the real reasons why Mab wants him for her Knight and remain at that post until the great battle is over.  So while fighting a hostile take over by the mantle will be an on going thing, Harry will soon realize if he doesn't already that he needs his aid in the coming fight.

[Snark Knight]

1)Harry's Bargains. Per WOJ, that third Favor is still in play, but largley moot because the Winter Knight thing basically gives her the ability to ask infinite favors.  The theory goes that the Last Favor might be used in a case where Harry might need to be sent after somebody that, per the terms of his Knighthood Bargain, she cannot send him after, specifically a Loved one.  So if she needs to send him after Molly or McCoy or Thomas or somebody she cannot order him as her Knight, but she can still ask the Final Favor.  And since the terms of those Three Favors said that afterward he'd be entirely Free of all Sidhe influence, all obligation to Lea and Mab (by the technical wording), the theory is that it might negate bargains made after that including the Knighthood.

Did Mab actually accept his demand for an exemption on having to kill a loved one? As I recall the passage, she initially said the Knight would kill whoever she damn well told him to. Did she ever explicitly concede that clause to him?

[Quantus]

Did Mab actually accept his demand for an exemption on having to kill a loved one? As I recall the passage, she initially said the Knight would kill whoever she damn well told him to. Did she ever explicitly concede that clause to him?

Yup, the clauses he raised during the scene in Changes were all accepted; she certainly upheld all the other conditions (power and support to recover Maggie, etc).  The various offered options she'd tossed out there in previous encounters were not though (like in DB she offered to wipe the remaining favors and answer his questions freely). 

[Quantus]

While all of that may be true, times are different now...   There is the BAT to consider, Harry is also star born, I believe in time he will accept the real reasons why Mab wants him for her Knight and remain at that post until the great battle is over.  So while fighting a hostile take over by the mantle will be an on going thing, Harry will soon realize if he doesn't already that he needs his aid in the coming fight.

I dont disagree with any of that in particular, but I dont honestly see the Sidhe court surviving the BAT intact, so I can still see circumstances (and Needs) making some sort of Winter emancipation necessary.  Look at it this way, the BAT is basically the only thing I can see that might drive Titania to fulfill her actual Purpose, and that would be the same sort of circumstance where Harry might want/need to get free of the Mantle. 

OR, and this one is even more out there: we still dont know what Service the Knight owes the Mother, and it might not be too agreeable to Harry, even with the world in the Balance. 

[MacPhoenix]

It seems this thread was duplicated some how, but we will just flow with it.

I didn't mean Mother Winter left off being Winter; she just lost some of her influence on the mortal world. I. E... that is what I thought was meant by retired.

I never thought of the courts actually being destroyed. I wonder if that would mean Harry and Molly would have to you know... "save the species".   

What ever he has to do for Mother Winter can't be good, or at least not good for Harry's health.

[Rasins]

Another possibility of a means for him to exit the WK mantle is for a queen to release him. 

We know Mab won't.  And since she outranks Molly, she may be able to prevent Molly from releasing him.  But Mother winter may be able to just removed the mantle and give it to another, without killing Harry.

I don't see a reason why she would do it without killing him, but it is possible.

[Quantus]

Another possibility of a means for him to exit the WK mantle is for a queen to release him. 

We know Mab won't.  And since she outranks Molly, she may be able to prevent Molly from releasing him.  But Mother winter may be able to just removed the mantle and give it to another, without killing Harry.

I don't see a reason why she would do it without killing him, but it is possible.

Only think I could think of is some oddball circumstance where she needs a Starborn that is NOT beholden to Winter, for whatever reasons

[Rasins]

Only think I could think of is some oddball circumstance where she needs a Starborn that is NOT beholden to Winter, for whatever reasons

Or if, for whatever reason, another person would make a better knight for whatever is coming up.

[kazimmoinuddin]

We are all expecting the fomor to attempt to back stab the meeting, so I am betting mab is preparing to use that to screw them over with it and serve her own purposes.