Mortal Government Knowledge of Magic

[Kindler]

Well sure, just about anything is vulnerable to a sufficiently motivated Conspiracy, but how is that relevant?

In fairness, you don't really need a conspiracy to accomplish that, you just need to tell 4chan about it and let them troll it to death. There is no shortage of willing participants for pretty much any disinformation campaign I can think of. Look at the amount of faulty stories people share on Facebook that get accepted as fact, regardless of the academic rigor (or lack thereof) present in the article. It's not even malicious most of the time, just uninformed.

The one thing about the Paranet is that there are real people who talk to each other involved, and it's not just a forum. They know specific names of members in Ghost Story, and are unnerved when they don't hear anything from a particular city for some length of time (can't remember the names, nor how long it was). With actual names, faces, and personal relationships, it's harder to take the Paranet down, compared to a place like this. I could just be a particularly intelligent dromedary, and none of you would know it. On the Paranet, they would. They kind of have to in order to prevent turning it into a shopping list for anyone looking to take down talents like they did in White Night.

[Cozarkian]

Casinos don't really need magical protections. Their normal by policies would be quite sufficient. If somebody is winning a suspicious amount they either bribe the person to stop playing (have some show tickets and a free day pass to our spa) or they politely ask them to find another casino and mention that this hugely muscled security personnel will be happy to make recommendations on your way off the premises.

[Quantus]

Im relatively sure it's not always cordial and they likely still prefer to confirm cheating, especially in the age of litigation and social media flash-fires.

[Cozarkian]

Im relatively sure it's not always cordial and they likely still prefer to confirm cheating, especially in the age of litigation and social media flash-fires.

Yes, I doubt it it's always cordial. For example, if you win a couple of jackpots on slot machines, you will probably be searched for some electronic tampering device and held while they review tapes and search the machines for tampering. But no casino is going to file ba lawsuit for magical tampering.

The point is casinos have enough reserves to survive losses from the few number of immoral wizards, cheaters, along with some perfectly legal threats (card counters) and that they will be have non-magical policies in place to remove such threats before it breaks the bank.

[Quantus]

Yes, I doubt it it's always cordial. For example, if you win a couple of jackpots on slot machines, you will probably be searched for some electronic tampering device and held while they review tapes and search the machines for tampering. But no casino is going to file ba lawsuit for magical tampering.

The point is casinos have enough reserves to survive losses from the few number of immoral wizards, cheaters, along with some perfectly legal threats (card counters) and that they will be have non-magical policies in place to remove such threats before it breaks the bank.

This all assumes you are going ot be stupid enough to stick around and provide them a suspicious Pattern.  But we're talking about cheating via some random Magic, which in many cases you could leverage with a single Game.  Mortgage your House, bet everything on Black (or something more specific with higher yield odds) and then go home rich.  Too many wins and they ask you to leave, but One big one and they give you lots of free crap on the hope you'll stick around long enough for them to win it back

[Cozarkian]

This all assumes you are going ot be stupid enough to stick around and provide them a suspicious Pattern.  But we're talking about cheating via some random Magic, which in many cases you could leverage with a single Game.  Mortgage your House, bet everything on Black (or something more specific with higher yield odds) and then go home rich.  Too many wins and they ask you to leave, but One big one and they give you lots of free crap on the hope you'll stick around long enough for them to win it back

Casinos simply don't mind if some players walk away as big winners. In fact, they want that to happen, because the winners come back, with friends, who lose. Casinos win in the long run, they don't care about the short run unless they think something suspicious is happening.

There are of course table limits that generally prevent you from making a bank breaking bet on a single spin of roulette.

But yes, assuming Harry had an appropriate spell, he could walk in, play some slots, cast his spell to win a multi-million dollar jackpot, and walk away rich. It is his moral code that stops him from doing that. Even if the casino caught him on tape chanting a spell, they would just think he is some crazy person that coincidentally got lucky.

He could probably even go do it at a couple more casinos. They report large winnings, so that would probably trigger an investigation by the gaming commission and an IRS audit, but again, if all they found was a crazy guy who thinks he cast a magic spell, he would get away with it.

[Quantus]

Casinos simply don't mind if some players walk away as big winners. In fact, they want that to happen, because the winners come back, with friends, who lose. Casinos win in the long run, they don't care about the short run unless they think something suspicious is happening.

There are of course table limits that generally prevent you from making a bank breaking bet on a single spin of roulette.

But yes, assuming Harry had an appropriate spell, he could walk in, play some slots, cast his spell to win a multi-million dollar jackpot, and walk away rich. It is his moral code that stops him from doing that. Even if the casino caught him on tape chanting a spell, they would just think he is some crazy person that coincidentally got lucky.

He could probably even go do it at a couple more casinos. They report large winnings, so that would probably trigger an investigation by the gaming commission and an IRS audit, but again, if all they found was a crazy guy who thinks he cast a magic spell, he would get away with it.

You could be right or you could be spectacularly wrong.  They could always be ignorant and loosing more money than they realize or need to, but I promise you they will still Care if they even dream that somebody is Cheating.

[Shift8]

On a slightly different note, one thing I am interested in is whether or not the Mortal Gov will play a role in the BAT. Specifically if the WC will reveal itself and join forces or something if the situation gets dire enough to require the assistance of the mortal authorities. Even if it is on a limited scale.

[Anubissama]

Well, the BAT is supposed to have Kaiju's and Aircraft Carriers, so that sounds like the Government gets involved at some point.

[huangjimmy108]

Some of you guys have an inordinate capacity for suspension of disbelief. I like the DV as much as anyone, but good grief. A plot hole is a plot hole.

You guys are attributing the US government with plot power comparable to ministry of magic in Harry Potter. And the other half of you is giving human rationalization totally unrealistic capabilities. It doesn't work this way IRL.

Note I'm not saying the cat is totally of the bag here. But people would absolutely, totally, completely certainly, without a doubt, indubitably, know that something strange happened. They may not know what kind of animals attacked them. They may not even think it was magic. But its crazy to say that the general facts of the incident would not be known. Not. Possible.

But I digress. I am sure Jim will explain everything all in due time, one way or another.

This is not something new. People has known all along.

Who have not heard of strange supernatural happenings?

That is that creepy house over there. That particular small town is spooky. There are strange sounds in that neighbourhood at night and so on.

People know, but nobody really investigates and do something about what they know or suspect. They don't even talk about it. The majority pretends they do not know even if they do,  and try to forget the stuff ASAP. Rudolph's strong denial is just an extreme, but most people in the DV is like that to an extent.

Out of sight, out of mind. And I suspect in the hindbrain of your average humankind lurks the fear of supernatural so deep that it subconsciously urge humanity away from all things supernatural as a survival mechanism. Much like the fear of the darkness. You need a strong act of will to resist this aversion, at least in the beginning until one manage to adapt. Most of the time the adaptation process is rather painful at best and deadly at worse.

As long as the supernatural does not flaunt themselves in broad daylight and force vanilla mortals to a corner, most vanilla are only too happy to let things be. So yes, even if there are clues left behind, the attack in changes will be covered up. The supernatural has been leaving clues behind for any willing vanilla all this time, but very very few actually follow the thread. In Harry's almost 20 years of wizarding career, only Murphy, Susan, Marcone, the alphas and possibly Hendricks and Valmont whom willingly and knowingly jump into the pool that is the supernatural world. Not very many, Butters does not count, because he is dragged into it kicking and screaming. The others, like the Carpenter family are rather supernatural themselves and are already involved in this world to begin with.

A Vanilla capacity for denial is extremely powerful in the DV.

The others, like Rawlins, Micky Mallone  and the SI people knows spooky stuff exist, but they kept quiet about it. . I think very very few vanilla truly ignorant about the supernatural. Knowing is one thing, acknowledging it however is another matter.

[Shift8]

This is not something new. People has known all along.

Who have not heard of strange supernatural happenings?

That is that creepy house over there. That particular small town is spooky. There are strange sounds in that neighbourhood at night and so on.

People know, but nobody really investigates and do something about what they know or suspect. They don't even talk about it. The majority pretends they do not know even if they do,  and try to forget the stuff ASAP. Rudolph's strong denial is just an extreme, but most people in the DV is like that to an extent.

Out of sight, out of mind. And I suspect in the hindbrain of your average humankind lurks the fear of supernatural so deep that it subconsciously urge humanity away from all things supernatural as a survival mechanism. Much like the fear of the darkness. You need a strong act of will to resist this aversion, at least in the beginning until one manage to adapt. Most of the time the adaptation process is rather painful at best and deadly at worse.

As long as the supernatural does not flaunt themselves in broad daylight and force vanilla mortals to a corner, most vanilla are only too happy to let things be. So yes, even if there are clues left behind, the attack in changes will be covered up. The supernatural has been leaving clues behind for any willing vanilla all this time, but very very few actually follow the thread. In Harry's almost 20 years of wizarding career, only Murphy, Susan, Marcone, the alphas and possibly Hendricks and Valmont whom willingly and knowingly jump into the pool that is the supernatural world. Not very many, Butters does not count, because he is dragged into it kicking and screaming. The others, like the Carpenter family are rather supernatural themselves and are already involved in this world to begin with.

A Vanilla capacity for denial is extremely powerful in the DV.

The others, like Rawlins, Micky Mallone  and the SI people knows spooky stuff exist, but they kept quiet about it. . I think very very few vanilla truly ignorant about the supernatural. Knowing is one thing, acknowledging it however is another matter.

Sorry man but these are awful comparisons.

You are comparing suspicious activity or pure superstition to a major public incident. You are also comparing the low-leve operations of SI with few direct actors to an incident that was loud, deadly, and littered with physical evidence for others to see. These are not fair comparisons what so ever. Notice that I havent questioned the other events in the series, but specifically this one.

People can only deny things so long as they can provide alternative explanations for them with a degree of rationality. This is in fact the official DV explanation for how most things go unnoticed, that excepting massive evidence, people will assume natural causes instead of making up something they know nothing about. That does not apply to the shootout with the FBI.

Im not saying that the whole super natural is outed. But at the very least it is now public knowledge that some kind of violent new species of animal exists. But it is utterly absurd to state that the general details of that incident did not get out. You cannot use the "denial" excuse ad infinitum. At some point it breaks.

[Quantus]

Sorry man but these are awful comparisons.

You are comparing suspicious activity or pure superstition to a major public incident. You are also comparing the low-leve operations of SI with few direct actors to an incident that was loud, deadly, and littered with physical evidence for others to see. These are not fair comparisons what so ever. Notice that I havent questioned the other events in the series, but specifically this one.

People can only deny things so long as they can provide alternative explanations for them with a degree of rationality. This is in fact the official DV explanation for how most things go unnoticed, that excepting massive evidence, people will assume natural causes instead of making up something they know nothing about. That does not apply to the shootout with the FBI.

Im not saying that the whole super natural is outed. But at the very least it is now public knowledge that some kind of violent new species of animal exists. But it is utterly absurd to state that the general details of that incident did not get out. You cannot use the "denial" excuse ad infinitum. At some point it breaks.

I think you are assuming that the only way to cover it up is to somehow make it so the incident never happened, and I agree that is absurd.  But that's not really how they do it.  They cover it up exactly the same way SI does: by filling in the boxes on the forms with more palatable explanation (And Rudolph proves you dont have to be consciously complicit to play that role).  They had a bombing followed by a high-profile attack on the FBI HQ that was investigating it.  One Person-of-Interest indicated that it was connected to a particularly powerful cartel/"Corporate Constellation" out of South America, and then a day or two later All of them Dies under mysterious circumstances all over the world. Nothing about this scream magic, and everything about it screams warring cartels and international terrorism. The only "evidence" possible might be the Rampire bodies, but the only person that might be able to definitively determine that they are not human would be some Medical Examiner, who would then immediately be "doing a three-month stint at a mental hospital for observation" just like Butters. 

Keep in mind that the events dont need to be covered up, it's just that the details need to be rejected by the Official Story early enough.  After that it lives on only in minds protected by tinfoil hats who are CONVINCED that the earth is flat and the moonlanding was fake and there are mind-control chemicals in the soap.

[Shift8]

I think you are assuming that the only way to cover it up is to somehow make it so the incident never happened, and I agree that is absurd.  But that's not really how they do it.  They cover it up exactly the same way SI does: by filling in the boxes on the forms with more palatable explanation (And Rudolph proves you dont have to be consciously complicit to play that role).  They had a bombing followed by a high-profile attack on the FBI HQ that was investigating it.  One Person-of-Interest indicated that it was connected to a particularly powerful cartel/"Corporate Constellation" out of South America, and then a day or two later All of them Dies under mysterious circumstances all over the world. Nothing about this scream magic, and everything about it screams warring cartels and international terrorism. The only "evidence" possible might be the Rampire bodies, but the only person that might be able to definitively determine that they are not human would be some Medical Examiner, who would then immediately be "doing a three-month stint at a mental hospital for observation" just like Butters. 

Keep in mind that the events dont need to be covered up, it's just that the details need to be rejected by the Official Story early enough.  After that it lives on only in minds protected by tinfoil hats who are CONVINCED that the earth is flat and the moonlanding was fake and there are mind-control chemicals in the soap.

There are too many witnesses for the level of deception you guys want to pull off here. The government cant wave a magic wand and turn off people brains. Too many people know for certain this wasnt a cartel. Not to mention its going to take all of about 5 seconds for someone to put together the problem that is: where is the evidence of the cartels arrival? Where are the bodies? Where are all the cartel weapons? I mean we can sit here an list these problems all day.

The problem you have here is that given how many data points there are that would be impossible to hide, no cover story about a cartel is going to last more than 90 seconds. You are never going to convince all, or even a majority, of the agents involved to keep their mouths shut. And the cover story is going to fall apart under media scrutiny.

And again, Im not saying that this means suddenly everyone believes in Vampires. Just that at the very least they know some new violent species of animal was on the loose.

[Quantus]

There are too many witnesses for the level of deception you guys want to pull off here. The government cant wave a magic wand and turn off people brains. Too many people know for certain this wasnt a cartel. Not to mention its going to take all of about 5 seconds for someone to put together the problem that is: where is the evidence of the cartels arrival? Where are the bodies? Where are all the cartel weapons? I mean we can sit here an list these problems all day.

Besides Tilly, name One. There were lots of "victims" but they were very specifically leaving no witnesses.  And other than possibly the Ikk, the "witnesses didnt really see anything explainable.  As to where are the weapons and bodies: right there on the floor holding the guns. DV Vamps dont ash out to nothing like on TV. 

The problem you have here is that given how many data points there are that would be impossible to hide, no cover story about a cartel is going to last more than 90 seconds. You are never going to convince all, or even a majority, of the agents involved to keep their mouths shut. And the cover story is going to fall apart under media scrutiny.

And again, Im not saying that this means suddenly everyone believes in Vampires. Just that at the very least they know some new violent species of animal was on the loose.

I...I cant really say NuhUh any more than I already have.  Please give me something more concrete to work with than just you own assertions that something is magically going to show up on the front page just because.


I mean, at BEST you are going to get another Bigfoot conspiracy theory that haunts the internet.  The general public simply WILL NOT accept an unknown predator that can attack and nearly wipe out the FBI in a major metropolitan area.  Not without clear Video, and autopsy, and enough peer review to shut up the doubters.  And once THAT happens, they'll start blaming geneticists for the "abominations of science" they set loose, or something. 

[huangjimmy108]

There are too many witnesses for the level of deception you guys want to pull off here. The government cant wave a magic wand and turn off people brains. Too many people know for certain this wasnt a cartel. Not to mention its going to take all of about 5 seconds for someone to put together the problem that is: where is the evidence of the cartels arrival? Where are the bodies? Where are all the cartel weapons? I mean we can sit here an list these problems all day.

The problem you have here is that given how many data points there are that would be impossible to hide, no cover story about a cartel is going to last more than 90 seconds. You are never going to convince all, or even a majority, of the agents involved to keep their mouths shut. And the cover story is going to fall apart under media scrutiny.

And again, Im not saying that this means suddenly everyone believes in Vampires. Just that at the very least they know some new violent species of animal was on the loose.

Here is the problem. There is no need to deceive, only need to blur the facts a little and the masses will conveniently choose to believe in a non supernatural explanation.

True, there are bodies left behind, but who gonna check and verify the truth? If you heard about a cartel attacking an FBI office in the newspaper, as a civilian, are you going to check it yourself? Or are you will accept the facts given to you by television and internet?

If the government put out a statement assuring that it is really a cartel, are you going to question the government and actually investigate yourself? And even if there are a few hundred witnesses swearing that it is a vampire attack, who do you think the masses gave more credibility. The official government statement or the scattered witnesses?

There are people who knows. They are people who thinks they know. There are people who suspects that supernatural exist, but in the end those people are only scattered sand. Even if those people scream until they die, the voice of a few hundred or a few thousand will be submerged under the skepticism of millions and billions. Those people will be isolated and rejected.  if they talk too loudly, they might end up the same way as Jack Murphy.

Those clues and strangeness you mention are real, but it is not something presented in front of the masses without the option of denial. The ships are not burned yet. The pictures blurry. The videos not very clear. Eye witnesses does not see things clearly. So long as the masses are given the option of retreat and denial, there will always be ways to blurr the facts and allow time and distance to erase the rest.

Not that the secrecy can't be broken, but if the scale is at the level of what happened in changes, with only at best 100 direct eye witnesses, it is far from enough. Heck, an entire city disappeared and reappeared,  but in time people just chalk it up as some freaky event and forget about it.