Stone Table Sacrifice

[Rasins]

It might not. Whoever created the Courts (presumably Hecate splitting her power, plus unspecified allies) may just have ignored the wyldfae as outside of what they needed.

One would wonder why an uber-powerful entity like Hecate WOULD split her power up?

[kazimmoinuddin]

The fomor are the remains of defeated dark pantheons. So they would have few mantles and immortals available, otherwise they would not have banded together. If those few beings of power were stolen away and slain on the stone table, that permantly rob the fomor of that power.

[Snark Knight]

One would wonder why an uber-powerful entity like Hecate WOULD split her power up?

Well, she wasn't as powerful the sum of both modern Courts at the start - a lot of their power came from sacrifices on the table since the separate courts were established.

As to why she divided her power, she probably understood that earth would need protecting from the Unseelie even as they protected earth and Faerie from the Outsiders. She had to ensure a matched balance at the leadership level out of the pool of power available at the time.

I do hope at some point to find out whether Mother Winter is the original Hecate, or Hecate died sacrificing herself to establish the new order.

[Quantus]

The WOJ about the current system being created said that is was due to the previous group's Power/influence in the world being on the decline.  By the Hecate connection Im assuming that is referring either to the greco-roman pantheon specifically, or (my much preferred) a larger coalition of the Human Pantheons of the day (including the Aesir, and hopefully others like the Persian or the Hindu or the Egyptian pantheons.  Ideally including some pantheons that are all but unknown to contemporary fiction. The decline I think was a general movement of globalization and less and less tribal-nations, etc.  Or, the early beginnings of the the ascent of Reason and Scientific thought/observation.  Or something else entirely, like a Starborn causing a ruckus. 

[Snark Knight]

The decline I think was a general movement of globalization and less and less tribal-nations, etc.  Or, the early beginnings of the the ascent of Reason and Scientific thought/observation.  Or something else entirely, like a Starborn causing a ruckus.

I think the Sidhe have been the Gate defenders since at least circa Battle of Hastings, if not longer. That puts the transition too early to tie the previous defenders' troubles to the scientific revolution.

Under the theory that the Sidhe displaced a coalition of pagan pantheons, it's possible the decline was due monotheism overtaking polytheism in much of the world. If many of the members of the previous gate defenders were running low on believers to fuel their power, maybe creating the seasonal courts and passing the torch to Winter was an act of desperation.

[Griffyn612]

I think the Sidhe have been the Gate defenders since at least circa Battle of Hastings, if not longer. That puts the transition too early to tie the previous defenders' troubles to the scientific revolution.

Under the theory that the Sidhe displaced a coalition of pagan pantheons, it's possible the decline was due monotheism overtaking polytheism in much of the world. If many of the members of the previous gate defenders were running low on believers to fuel their power, maybe creating the seasonal courts and passing the torch to Winter was an act of desperation.

This, with the caveat that monotheistic pantheons couldn't take over the Gates themselves because of restrictive purviews imposed upon them by mortal beliefs.

[Quantus]

This, with the caveat that monotheistic pantheons couldn't take over the Gates themselves because of restrictive purviews imposed upon them by mortal beliefs.

What do you mean?

[Quantus]

I think the Sidhe have been the Gate defenders since at least circa Battle of Hastings, if not longer. That puts the transition too early to tie the previous defenders' troubles to the scientific revolution.

It woudl certainly be on the late end of things.  Im not saying the Rennasaince or anything, but rather when the shift went from Faith to logical Reasoning, which began 500BC according to this.  By Hastings, people were publishing refutations of the Aristotelian classic elements and were gaining a modern understanding of disease, medicine, optics, etc.  All these things were becoming explain as Natural parts of the world rather than the Power and mercurial tempers of Gods and Monsters.

Under the theory that the Sidhe displaced a coalition of pagan pantheons, it's possible the decline was due monotheism overtaking polytheism in much of the world. If many of the members of the previous gate defenders were running low on believers to fuel their power, maybe creating the seasonal courts and passing the torch to Winter was an act of desperation.

This could work too, though Id expect that particular shift to center more directly around the Crucifixion, given that all Objects with actual, innate Power (save the blackstaff) all come from that stage.

[Rasins]

This could work too, though Id expect that particular shift to center more directly around the Crucifixion, given that all Objects with actual, innate Power (save the blackstaff) all come from that stage.

What if ... the Blackstaff was the actual Staff portion of the Spear of Longinus?

[kazimmoinuddin]

It is claimed  the fomor include Titans and Giants, those that were the precursors to the more mortal aligned pantheons. The primordial pantheons, the more element ally aligned divinities. So if the faerie courts have the more human pantheons, would the fomor gathered the elemental pantheons.

[Griffyn612]

What do you mean?

Free will. 

Polytheistic religions appear to have revolved around deities controlling many aspects of people's daily lives, and therefore worshippers might have granted those same deities a level of authority to act as they saw fit.  A sacrifice of free will to them gave them a measure of free will, which freed them to do what was necessary without humanity's knowledge.

Monotheistic religions appear, with certain exceptions, to accept that their deity is absolute, but also granted humanity free will to decide their own fate.  This leads to an absence of free will imparted upon the monotheistic pantheon, save for when believers individually seek intervention.

This could have led to a strict purview, which is suggested by Uriel's commentary, on what they can and cannot do.  There may be differences in degrees between the different monotheistic pantheons, but on the whole, they're not getting enough to act.

Hence the need for a constructed pantheon based on elemental forces humanity still recognizes as beyond their control, and therefore collectively plans it's life around.

[vultur]

I don't know about all the coins, but Nick and Tessa for sure.

The Fallen in the coins are significant on Demonreach-level; Nic and Tessa themselves aren't even close. Tessa is a wizard (Council-level, but nowhere near, say, Morgan or Luccio level ability) with some physical enhancements and the ability to turn into a swarm of bugs. Nic has super shadow spying abilities and a really powerful magical item, but that's about it.

Naagloshii are minimum security in Demonreach. One of those would easily, trivially destroy Nic or Tessa - probably both of them working together. (Even Nic, actually, given that naagloshii have intellectus about how to hurt people.)

A more practical idea, it seems to me, and more moral, is Harry's approach.  Take the Coins, encase them in blocks of high-density concrete, that sort of thing.  Make them physically harder to touch at all.

Yeah. Put them in concrete blocks then drop them in a deep part of the Pacific. That ought to work for a while at least... just watch for people sending submarines into that area...

One would wonder why an uber-powerful entity like Hecate WOULD split her power up?

Maybe she didn't, intentionally.

While it would go against one of my other WAGs ("MW is the original Hecate, thus an Ascended Hecatean Hag, thus not Fae and that's why she can touch iron") - maybe the original Hecate was killed on Halloween in some way that forced the split. (Killed by two people who divided her mantle among them?)

Immortals trade bits of mantles on Halloween, according to Bob. Hmmm... maybe the two WAGs are actually compatible - maybe the original Mother Summer stole half of the original Hecate's power through some kind of ritual or something (without killing her).

The later delegation of power from Mother to Queen, Lady, Knight on each side IMO is a simple matter of getting around the inherently limiting nature of having "reality crushing" level power -- and it's probably not that much loss anyway. If MW is an order of magnitude stronger than Mab and Mab's an order of magnitude stronger than the Winter Lady, MW's only lost 11% of her original power.

What if ... the Blackstaff was the actual Staff portion of the Spear of Longinus?

IIRC there's a WOJ hint along the lines of "Celtic lore around 1065 AD", so probably not.

This could work too, though Id expect that particular shift to center more directly around the Crucifixion, given that all Objects with actual, innate Power (save the blackstaff) all come from that stage.

Medea's bodkin would be significantly older - Medea ought to be from the heroic age of Greek myth, around the time of the Trojan War - say 1300-1200 BC.

[kazimmoinuddin]

 I wonder, since the knights are part of the Queen power, can they summon the table when needed? It is said the Knights are expressions of power, do could they also accept power?

[Quantus]

Medea's bodkin would be significantly older - Medea ought to be from the heroic age of Greek myth, around the time of the Trojan War - say 1300-1200 BC.

True, but it's "power" is more in line with the Athame, ie power by use/association.  As compared to "Objects with actual, innate Power", which per WOJ the athame was not, but the Swords and Noose and Blackstaff were (and I strongly suspect the Vault 7 artifacts as well). 

[Rasins]

True, but it's "power" is more in line with the Athame, ie power by use/association.  As compared to "Objects with actual, innate Power", which per WOJ the athame was not, but the Swords and Noose and Blackstaff were (and I strongly suspect the Vault 7 artifacts as well).

Grail
Knife (Spearhead?)
Crown of Thorns
Sign/Placard
Shroud

Were there 2 that I'm misremembering?