Better Guns for Dresden and Co.

[Zaphodess]

More than just training for wizards, the real force multiplier for the White Council would be to form and maintain a dedicated team of soldiers who train alongside the wardens using combined arms tactics. A wizard firing a rifle isn't putting up a shield or launching fireballs; there's an opportunity cost to it. What they really need is a minion with a machine gun laying down suppressing fire so that the wizard can line up the big 'boom' - basically, dungeons & dragons tactics with a SAW instead of a broadsword.

Heck, this is more or less exactly what Harry does with his squads - everybody has a dedicated role that they support each other with. The wardens would be much more effective if they used the same tactics instead of just sending wizards off by themselves.

The problems is that while this would physically be a world-beating force, it is wholly dependent on trusting in the loyalty of a bunch of vanilla mortals who would suddenly gain insights into the strengths and vulnerabilities of the wizards (of which there are many). That's already hard enough with wizards who have a vested interest in banding together - a regular mortal who develops a grudge against the warden has a lot less binding them to the council than any wizard would.

Exactly. In a way, they were doing it with their alliances with the Venatori and the Fellowship. But that was the limit. I don't know if Morgan's attitude (TC, after hearing about Kirby's death) was an exception or the rule, but he seemed to have a moral objection to bringing in normals in a supernatural fight.

[uncanny]

Nah, Harry did a lot of work in Metal (force rings, shield bracelet, bear belt buckle, svartalf Summoning circle, lighting chain).  He even laments in SG that he'd not yet had the time or money to rebuild his metalcrafting capabilities, which is why he moved some of his standard enchantments to his staff.  But have you ever tried to carry around a 2"x6' staff made of steel?  Or even a 1"x18" rod?  Not going to be winning any footraces carrying those.  Wood is traditional, is far easier to work in general, and makes a far lighter final product.  Also, if a wooden blasting rod explodes from being overloaded (like in Changes) its going to do less damage to it's wielder than a metal rod exploding (with or without molten shrapnel).

True, but he could add a tip to each end of the staff - perhaps something out of that silvery stuff the Sidhe use, making it "legal" to carry around Mab - which makes his staff a bit more versatile.  In fact, come to think of it... he could have a snap-on steel attachment to cut through Fae enchantments?

Has the idea of enchanting a gun itself to be a staff- or blasting-rod-like item come up in this thread?  It could be one of those polymer material guns to avoid the iron in faery problem.  There's actually two bonuses here: he runs out of bullets, he starts throwing magic through it, or if he starts with magic, he can resort to bullets.  Each clip could be imbued with an energy spell, refreshing himself in prolonged battles while replacing the bullets.
Could even have a "don't look here" compulsion added to it so that it wouldn't be noticed ordinarily..

[Quantus]

We know that Gard has done Magic bullets, and we knwo that Harry is slowly getting over his fear of modern guns jamming and whatnot.  Im really hoping he enchants that old-school rifle Harry got in CD; it was described as having the same security blanket aspect that the staff does, namely being a heavy piece of Mass that you can bash things with.  And it's of a vintage that he shouldnt fear too much (That fear alone is likely enough to make it legitimately dangerous, given how it can effect a wizards magic and murphionic field)

EDIT:  OOOh, Found a direct WOJ on this topic:

The 'Harry screws up guns' thing hasn't been seen for several novels now, and I sincerely hope it's something JB has decided to let go to dust.  First away, if Harry's disruption thing is so bad that it can mess up simple chemistry and even simpler mechanical operations, then howinblazes does his car ever work?  Orders of magnitude more complex, mechanically, chemically, and electrically speaking...

On the other hand, using a GUN in earnest tends to be a tad more emotionally (and therefore magically) engaging than your average drive in a car.  Proximity has a lot to do with it, too.  Harry's actually TOUCHING the gun, generally in his right hand (the hand that projects magical energy) to boot.  In fact, the gun is small enough that it's actually going to be encompassed by his bioelectric field (a very mild, but totally individual field of electromagnetic energy that the human body produces).

The car is a much larger (relative) object that is (relatively) farther away, even when Harry is driving under stress--and even so, the Beetle (and other cars) have broken down on-stage more often than guns have actually jammed on-stage.

And there are other factors involved of which Harry is not entirely aware.  Alas, that the viewpoint character is non-omniscient.

The rules aren't changing.  The proper circumstances just haven't all aligned the way they have in the other instances of guns glitching.

Jim

[namkcas]

I think we need to basically say that the technology interactions are problematic in the series and that no single theory can explain them.  They are there to make the plot work.  Let me give some examples:

1 - Guns:  Okay how about old guns...The Colt Model 1911 (aka a 45), Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, the M2 Machine Gun, and a Gatling Gun.  Now that Harry is the Winter Knight he should be able to hold and wield any of these and manage the recoil through clever use of ice.  All of them were invented for or used in WWI with the exception of the Gatling Gun which is US Civil War era tech.  Given the "WWII" nature of the tech challenge, none of these should be impacted by Harry.  So automatic weapons should be completely available to him.  Please note that he used VERY modern ammo in his shotgun during Small Favor...so ammo does not seem to be a problem.  I recognize nobody would walk down a street with an M2 but a 45 is no bigger than some of the crap he has carried.

2 - Phones:  Okay he kills cell phones, but I am more interested in his interference with Landlines.  In the earlier stories in particular, this was a problem.  Now if he was smart he would have had an old style rotary dial desk phone.  Technology perfected in the 1920s.  Pulse dialing still works today.  Now the problem might be on the other end of the line...but the standard for cable length in the US Outside Plant in a Regional Bell Operating Company (RBOC and given this is Chicago this is now AT&T formerly SBC formerly Ameritech) is 12,000 ft or about 2.5 miles.  The tech used is older than in cell phone - which Harry does not blow up walking down the street.  So, it seems to me that impacting tech 2.5 miles away when you are not impacting tech in the next room seems dubious.  The kind of patch cord switch that is used in Edinburgh is a much trickier proposition.  The allocation of functions that worked in the days of patch cords is not true today and without very special arrangements would be greatly problematic.  The loss plan and echo cancellation and where it happens has moved.  It would make this very old fashioned model a problem for network operations.  The same could be said with a stepper motor based switch, but I think there are one or 2 of those still in active use.

3 - Computers:  Remember Dead Beat and Butters and the GPS?  Okay....so clearly Electro-Mechanical Waves pass through circles or we would not have had a functioning GPS.  That means well Harry can have a completely modern computer and have it connected to the Internet!  How so?  There are 4 problems.  One having an unbroken Circle around the computer...transmitting power to the computer...transmitting some form of Wireless Internet....being able to interact with the computer.  All of these interactions can be accomplished by transmission of E-M energy across an air gap.  The first is pretty easy.  Telsa himself wanted to transmit energy through the air.  For Harry it can be even simpler, with the use of magnetic coupling to turn an linear motor.  The second is trivial as well...use wireless...remember Harry clearly does not interfere with cell service throughout Chicago.  He interferes with nearby Cell Phones and so you locate the hotspot inside the circle with the computer.  The 3rd was a problem for keyboard and mouse until I leaned about shaped magnets.  This would allow for the creation of completely mechanical devices to interact with the computer across an air gap.  Use the shaped magnets to represent different key strokes on a keyboard (shape and location being key).  Mice are essentially location based anyway - so are detectable through an air gap.  And poof Harry has a computer.

All of these items would essentially destroy our enjoyment of the stories but are supported by the reading of any of the books.

[Quantus]

I think we need to basically say that the technology interactions are problematic in the series and that no single theory can explain them.  They are there to make the plot work.  Let me give some examples:

1 - Guns:  Okay how about old guns...The Colt Model 1911 (aka a 45), Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, the M2 Machine Gun, and a Gatling Gun.  Now that Harry is the Winter Knight he should be able to hold and wield any of these and manage the recoil through clever use of ice.  All of them were invented for or used in WWI with the exception of the Gatling Gun which is US Civil War era tech.  Given the "WWII" nature of the tech challenge, none of these should be impacted by Harry.  So automatic weapons should be completely available to him.  Please note that he used VERY modern ammo in his shotgun during Small Favor...so ammo does not seem to be a problem.  I recognize nobody would walk down a street with an M2 but a 45 is no bigger than some of the crap he has carried.

2 - Phones:  Okay he kills cell phones, but I am more interested in his interference with Landlines.  In the earlier stories in particular, this was a problem.  Now if he was smart he would have had an old style rotary dial desk phone.  Technology perfected in the 1920s.  Pulse dialing still works today.  Now the problem might be on the other end of the line...but the standard for cable length in the US Outside Plant in a Regional Bell Operating Company (RBOC and given this is Chicago this is now AT&T formerly SBC formerly Ameritech) is 12,000 ft or about 2.5 miles.  The tech used is older than in cell phone - which Harry does not blow up walking down the street.  So, it seems to me that impacting tech 2.5 miles away when you are not impacting tech in the next room seems dubious.  The kind of patch cord switch that is used in Edinburgh is a much trickier proposition.  The allocation of functions that worked in the days of patch cords is not true today and without very special arrangements would be greatly problematic.  The loss plan and echo cancellation and where it happens has moved.  It would make this very old fashioned model a problem for network operations.  The same could be said with a stepper motor based switch, but I think there are one or 2 of those still in active use.

3 - Computers:  Remember Dead Beat and Butters and the GPS?  Okay....so clearly Electro-Mechanical Waves pass through circles or we would not have had a functioning GPS.  That means well Harry can have a completely modern computer and have it connected to the Internet!  How so?  There are 4 problems.  One having an unbroken Circle around the computer...transmitting power to the computer...transmitting some form of Wireless Internet....being able to interact with the computer.  All of these interactions can be accomplished by transmission of E-M energy across an air gap.  The first is pretty easy.  Telsa himself wanted to transmit energy through the air.  For Harry it can be even simpler, with the use of magnetic coupling to turn an linear motor.  The second is trivial as well...use wireless...remember Harry clearly does not interfere with cell service throughout Chicago.  He interferes with nearby Cell Phones and so you locate the hotspot inside the circle with the computer.  The 3rd was a problem for keyboard and mouse until I leaned about shaped magnets.  This would allow for the creation of completely mechanical devices to interact with the computer across an air gap.  Use the shaped magnets to represent different key strokes on a keyboard (shape and location being key).  Mice are essentially location based anyway - so are detectable through an air gap.  And poof Harry has a computer.

All of these items would essentially destroy our enjoyment of the stories but are supported by the reading of any of the books.

The WWII bar for functioning tech is mostly applicable to automobiles iirc, and the WOJ above explains some of the various situational differences between that and a gun. 

[namkcas]

In other words, as I said...the rules exist to make the stories work and don't think to much about it.   Read my section on phones.

See the whole notion that Jim puts forth makes no sense for something like the scene in the Van in PG.  Here is Harry - in a panic - tossing around magic...and the van works perfectly.  And he is inside the van directly above the transmission.   Why didn't it lock up? 

So my view of this again is don't examine it too closely...there is a whole lotta...it is this way to make this story work.

[Quantus]

In other words, as I said...the rules exist to make the stories work and don't think to much about it.   Read my section on phones.  Because he is inside his car.

The WORLD exists to make the stories work, that doesnt mean the rules arent consistent. 

[Independent George]

It's actually a bit of a misnomer to call revolvers 'simple' than autos (particularly modern semi-autos). They're definitely simpler to operate, but they are mechanically much, much more complex than a modern striker-fired handgun like a Glock (which Ramirez uses without problems).  The average person can detail strip a Glock into all its component parts, clean them, and then re-assemble them in well under an hour. I would not ever recommend attempting to do the same thing with a revolver.

It's the modern materials and manufacturing methods which are more complex than in the past; mechanically, modern guns are far more robust than older ones.

[jonas]

I wanna see a blunderbuss, just because. Pretty much any old school wizard could have one.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I think we need to basically say that the technology interactions are problematic in the series and that no single theory can explain them.  They are there to make the plot work.  Let me give some examples:

1 - Guns:  Okay how about old guns...The Colt Model 1911 (aka a 45), Thompson Sub-Machine Gun, the M2 Machine Gun, and a Gatling Gun.  Now that Harry is the Winter Knight he should be able to hold and wield any of these and manage the recoil through clever use of ice.  All of them were invented for or used in WWI with the exception of the Gatling Gun which is US Civil War era tech.  Given the "WWII" nature of the tech challenge, none of these should be impacted by Harry.  So automatic weapons should be completely available to him.  Please note that he used VERY modern ammo in his shotgun during Small Favor...so ammo does not seem to be a problem.  I recognize nobody would walk down a street with an M2 but a 45 is no bigger than some of the crap he has carried.
All of these items would essentially destroy our enjoyment of the stories but are supported by the reading of any of the books.

You left out the BAR and the StG 44 (or Sturmgewehr).  However, in Cold Days Thomas pointed out that he didn't offer Harry the use of an automatic weapon because Harry is a lousy shot.  It takes practice to fire these things accurately.  I've fired the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun and a few other WW2 era guns.  That thing wants to jump out of your hands, though there are some other weapons of that time period that are much easier to keep on target.  However, I'm getting off topic here.  The fact is Harry doesn't have a lot of time to practice new skills.  For me, that's the only reasonable explanation for Harry not becoming a gun expert.

But I'm not dismissing your main point.  I never really liked the idea that magic messes up modern technology.  It seems too easy a fix to keep modern tech from interfering with or overpowering a story.  I think both Ben Aaronovitch in his Rivers of London books and Benedict Jacka in his Alex Verus series have found different ways of not having modern technology interfere with the magical world.  I especially like that British Light Council in the Alex Verus books uses non-magical mercenaries so the magic users can do their own thing.       

[jonas]

In other words, as I said...the rules exist to make the stories work and don't think to much about it.   Read my section on phones.

See the whole notion that Jim puts forth makes no sense for something like the scene in the Van in PG.  Here is Harry - in a panic - tossing around magic...and the van works perfectly.  And he is inside the van directly above the transmission.   Why didn't it lock up? 

So my view of this again is don't examine it too closely...there is a whole lotta...it is this way to make this story work.

The rules are not readily apparent without thought, but they exist and while they are mutable, they haven't changed yet in the pages of the stories that I've noticed. This isn't odd to me at all. You have to examine the evidence, both book and woj deductively. uhh let me try it this way.

Wizards effect technology because they are conflicted. that confliction this is what causes machines to break down. Said effect is actually wizards effecting probability, the randomness of luck.
 It's contained to machines as even top wizards don't usually put off enough magical aura to do what say, meeting with mother winter would do, but the transfer can happen. Also because they are 'spirit callers' not necessarily of previously living beings but the spirits of the elements themselves, like in GS the ghosts can effect the van but not people. they aren't supposed to, and without manifesting(whih is bad juju) they can't. Wizards can effect people and obects inside others aura's because wizards are mortal, they possess the free will to do so.(technically, ghost can screw with the nautral order too, but notice if either a wizard or ghost do so they tend to go kooky for cosmic reasons)
Now notice when said conflict or belief of conflict fails to come into play, is when they aren't conflicted! guns pointed at Dresden misfire all the time. Dresden himself enjoys blowing out technology, that's prime reason why anything around him would go bonkers, deep down he wants it somewhere. Notice now that NEVER not once has Harry's gun ever misfired? He doesn't want it to! it's very clear cut to me but I might not have explained well enough. however I take great offence to the statement no single theory can explain it, mine can... if only I could explain it lol. Oh, and yea... that's totally an underestimation of jims ability to say they're that way to make the story work. of course they're there to make the story work. But not as silly plot devices that go one way or another depending on what makes the current story. the over arcing story.
I use this connection between magic and random luck to make my own connection between the 3rd fate, the chooser, Nemesis who meets out punishment and literal fortuna, luck.  it's all the same thing. Before she was ousted she controlled magic to decide the fate of everything as much as MW destroys and MS is the source of creation.
*Notice milk stopped spoiling and skin conditions desisted as part of the magical effect, right around when people started to learn more about the world and contributing those things to reality based effects instead of bad luck or 'little demons', Ahhh think about it, milk was left out to ward away bad luck! It twas the focus to to be used against it, a talisman if you were. An what happened because of it? Random 'badluck' from wizarding aura's began to accumulate in milk causing it to spoil!

[Shift8]

You left out the BAR and the StG 44 (or Sturmgewehr).  However, in Cold Days Thomas pointed out that he didn't offer Harry the use of an automatic weapon because Harry is a lousy shot.  It takes practice to fire these things accurately.  I've fired the Thompson Sub-Machine Gun and a few other WW2 era guns.  That thing wants to jump out of your hands, though there are some other weapons of that time period that are much easier to keep on target.  However, I'm getting off topic here.  The fact is Harry doesn't have a lot of time to practice new skills.  For me, that's the only reasonable explanation for Harry not becoming a gun expert.

But I'm not dismissing your main point.  I never really liked the idea that magic messes up modern technology.  It seems too easy a fix to keep modern tech from interfering with or overpowering a story.  I think both Ben Aaronovitch in his Rivers of London books and Benedict Jacka in his Alex Verus series have found different ways of not having modern technology interfere with the magical world.  I especially like that British Light Council in the Alex Verus books uses non-magical mercenaries so the magic users can do their own thing.       

I dont have any objections really to this, just want to add something.

It really depends on which full auto weapon he uses. Not to mention that for most tactical situations he would just want to use semi-auto. That being said, I have fired the M-16/M4 extensively in burst/auto. They are easy to control. Within 50m, you can pop a man sized target with ease. The mistake many people make when using full auto is they try to keep using the sights. The very first time I ever got to use the M-16 in burst, I found that I could repeated strike the 50m target over and over by aiming over the sights and just using my instincts to fire. I went through about 400 rounds in the space of about 20min and it was a real eye opener as to how useful and easy to use full auto can be in some circumstances: ie split second moving or simply brief targets at close range with little opportunity to aim. Also making a weapon smoke is fun

[Zaphodess]

3 - Computers:  Remember Dead Beat and Butters and the GPS?  Okay....so clearly Electro-Mechanical Waves pass through circles or we would not have had a functioning GPS.  That means well Harry can have a completely modern computer and have it connected to the Internet!  How so?  There are 4 problems.  One having an unbroken Circle around the computer...transmitting power to the computer...transmitting some form of Wireless Internet....being able to interact with the computer.  All of these interactions can be accomplished by transmission of E-M energy across an air gap.  The first is pretty easy.  Telsa himself wanted to transmit energy through the air.  For Harry it can be even simpler, with the use of magnetic coupling to turn an linear motor.  The second is trivial as well...use wireless...remember Harry clearly does not interfere with cell service throughout Chicago.  He interferes with nearby Cell Phones and so you locate the hotspot inside the circle with the computer.  The 3rd was a problem for keyboard and mouse until I leaned about shaped magnets.  This would allow for the creation of completely mechanical devices to interact with the computer across an air gap.  Use the shaped magnets to represent different key strokes on a keyboard (shape and location being key).  Mice are essentially location based anyway - so are detectable through an air gap.  And poof Harry has a computer.

All of these items would essentially destroy our enjoyment of the stories but are supported by the reading of any of the books.

You don't really have to make the computer itself survive the Murphyonic field, just the user interfaces: keyboard, mouse, monitor, camera, mike, speakers. Put them in a circle (except for the keyboard and maybe a mouse, but they are probably not that easily destroyed and cheap to replace), have some strongly insulated cables running to your friend's place a couple of houses down and use his computer with internetconnection.

[Shift8]

What Harry really needs (or doesn't, as the books have demonstrated that guns absolutely do not suffer from the the murphonic field) is a anti-murphonic field bracelet. It will be a plot device defeating plot device.

[Mr. Death]

What Harry really needs (or doesn't, as the books have demonstrated that guns absolutely do not suffer from the the murphonic field) is a anti-murphonic field bracelet. It will be a plot device defeating plot device.

"Absolutely," huh?

Storm Front:

There
were a number of sharp clicking sounds. The automatic had
jammed. Hell, with this much magic flying around the room, we
were all lucky the thing hadn't just exploded.

Grave Peril:

One of the security men’s guns suddenly
jumped and twisted, and he cried out in pain, reeling back, blood
streaming from his hands and the ruins of his face.
Technology doesn’t tend to work too well around magic.
Including the feeding mechanisms of automatic weapons.
Two of the guns jammed before dumping their full clips, and the
others fell silent, spent.