Better Guns for Dresden and Co.

[jonas]

"Absolutely," huh?

Storm Front:
Grave Peril:

He's talking about Harrys gun never jamming, or his allies. But Harry's not conflicted when he uses a gun, point of fact, murder takes a good deal of willpower/intent, so why would he be conflicted when choosing to pull the trigger anyway? probably never read the woj where jim talks about the narrator(harry) not having all the pieces on this one.

[Shift8]

"Absolutely," huh?

Storm Front:
Grave Peril:

For all intensive purposes, Yes. Firearms in the DV, and for that matter most mortal items, rarely malfunction. They are used with propensity throughout the books, and they for all intensive purposes never malfunction due to magic.

Plus your ignoring that his is just Harry's assumption as to why the jammed. unreliable narrator etc. And your ignoring that we have not only dozens and dozens and dozens of accounts of no problem at all, but that Murphy and Dresden had a conversation about this. Specifically that Dresden's fear of autos is misplaced.

Sure is strange Carlos uses that glock all day long without a problem....

[jonas]

For all intensive purposes, Yes. Firearms in the DV, and for that matter most mortal items, rarely malfunction. They are used with propensity throughout the books, and they for all intensive purposes never malfunction due to magic.

Plus your ignoring that his is just Harry's assumption as to why the jammed. unreliable narrator etc. And your ignoring that we have not only dozens and dozens and dozens of accounts of no problem at all, but that Murphy and Dresden had a conversation about this. Specifically that Dresden's fear of autos is misplaced.

Sure is strange Carlos uses that glock all day long without a problem....

Not really, Harry explains also that weaker wizards effect things less and it's specifically known Carlos is weaker then Dresden in raw power. please explain the 'ignoring that his is Harry's assumption paragraph...' so I can refute it too.

[Mr. Death]

For all intensive purposes, Yes. Firearms in the DV, and for that matter most mortal items, rarely malfunction. They are used with propensity throughout the books, and they for all intensive purposes never malfunction due to magic.

First, pet peeve: It's "all intents and purposes."

Second, "all intents and purposes" is not "absolutely not." We have direct, observed evidence that magic does, in fact, cause firearms to jam.

Plus your ignoring that his is just Harry's assumption as to why the jammed. unreliable narrator etc.

Cripes I hate this "argument." "Harry doesn't know everything" is not license to disregard when he's talking about the things he observes directly and knows what he's talking about.

Harry knows how magic works. He can be relied upon to be right about the things he is observing actually happening. Just because it inconveniences your argument doesn't make it not true.

Seriously, this is like when certain people were arguing that the Red Court War wasn't even actually happening.

And your ignoring that we have not only dozens and dozens and dozens of accounts of no problem at all, but that Murphy and Dresden had a conversation about this. Specifically that Dresden's fear of autos is misplaced.

Right, because Murphy knows more about how magic works than Dresden.

Which is why, I presume, she has to ask Harry, multiple times every book, how magic works.

Sure is strange Carlos uses that glock all day long without a problem....

Carlos's glock is a semiautomatic. Not an automatic.

Yes, I know there are glocks that can be automatic, but Carlos's does not appear to be one of them.

[Shift8]

First, pet peeve: It's "all intents and purposes."

Second, "all intents and purposes" is not "absolutely not." We have direct, observed evidence that magic does, in fact, cause firearms to jam.
Cripes I hate this "argument." "Harry doesn't know everything" is not license to disregard when he's talking about the things he observes directly and knows what he's talking about.

Harry knows how magic works. He can be relied upon to be right about the things he is observing actually happening. Just because it inconveniences your argument doesn't make it not true.

Seriously, this is like when certain people were arguing that the Red Court War wasn't even actually happening.

Right, because Murphy knows more about how magic works than Dresden.

Which is why, I presume, she has to ask Harry, multiple times every book, how magic works.
Carlos's glock is a semiautomatic. Not an automatic.

Yes, I know there are glocks that can be automatic, but Carlos's does not appear to be one of them.

For all intents and purposes its true. Two occurrences to the contrary do not make a rule. I could cite literally dozens of firefights int he DV where nothing of the sort happened. This despite Dresden flinging all sorts of magic all over the place at the same time. The point here is whether the reliability problem is sufficiently large to matter, and the battles of the book make it clear that it is not.

As was stated earlier, Dresden does not have completely accurate knowledge of this. Per WOJ, actually. So its fair to say that Dresdens perspective and opinion here is not fully reliable. So in point of fact, it is license to assume Dresden doesnt know what he is talking about, isnt it?

You do realize that the mechanical difference between fully auto and semi auto is trivial right? It would almost certainly make no difference.

[Mr. Death]

Just because something doesn't happen every book does not mean it's not true.

We see magic interfering with technology all the time, including things with no electronics. That includes guns.

Why would it not include guns? What makes guns special compared to, say, an internal combustion engine, that Harry's magic would reliably foul up one, but is "absolutely not" a problem for the other?

Harry's observations are generally spot on, and I see no reason to doubt his assessment here, except that it's inconvenient for your idea of everyone packing state-of-the-art weapons.

[Shift8]

Just because something doesn't happen every book does not mean it's not true.

We see magic interfering with technology all the time, including things with no electronics. That includes guns.

Why would it not include guns? What makes guns special compared to, say, an internal combustion engine, that Harry's magic would reliably foul up one, but is "absolutely not" a problem for the other?

Harry's observations are generally spot on, and I see no reason to doubt his assessment here, except that it's inconvenient for your idea of everyone packing state-of-the-art weapons.

Because it does not happen in the overwhelming majority of cases that is why. And we have other direct statements in the book that guns are very much primary weapons in the DV.

We have per WOJ that Harry's understanding of this is incomplete and or flawed. Dont know how much simpler it could be really. Makes alot of sense considering that despite Harry's constant suspicion of technological failure, it very often seems to not matter. Take his fear of hospitals for example, and then the fact that it didnt seem to do anything during all his visits to one. Or the fact that 9.5 time out of ten every gun in the DV seems to work just fine. Sure is awfully consistently a non-issue.

Dresden sure had no problems with a lever action rifle. And they are not what you would call mechanically simple. Especially compared to semi-auto pistols or assault rifles.

[Mr. Death]

Where in WOJ does it say that Harry is wrong about how magic affects technology?

Why do you believe guns are not affected in the same way as cars, even though they're about the same "level" of technology?

That it's only happened a couple times on the page does not mean it's not something that happens.

[Shift8]

Where in WOJ does it say that Harry is wrong about how magic affects technology?

Why do you believe guns are not affected in the same way as cars, even though they're about the same "level" of technology?

That it's only happened a couple times on the page does not mean it's not something that happens.

Read back a bit, it was quoted already IIRC. Jim stated that the rules are not changing, but the reason Harry's assumptions about magical interference dont work out alot is because he doesnt fully understand the physics of it.

Cars and guns are not on the same level. A car is objectively far more complex. Even just the engine.

Statistically, is matter of fact that in the Dresden files, guns work without fail an order of magnitude more often than they fail based on all the instances we have seen in the books. Its not that it never ever ever happens, but that it happens so rarely it basically doesn't matter much.

[Quantus]

Where in WOJ does it say that Harry is wrong about how magic affects technology?

Why do you believe guns are not affected in the same way as cars, even though they're about the same "level" of technology?

This I can answer, there's a specific WOJ where he spells out the various differences.  They are actually affected MORE than cars (despite being of comparable vintages), due to relative size, aura interaction, and the typical emotional state of a gunman vs a driver in the moment.  Also, alas, he did say there are factors involved which harry is unaware because his understanding of Magic is not Perfect.

The 'Harry screws up guns' thing hasn't been seen for several novels now, and I sincerely hope it's something JB has decided to let go to dust.  First away, if Harry's disruption thing is so bad that it can mess up simple chemistry and even simpler mechanical operations, then howinblazes does his car ever work?  Orders of magnitude more complex, mechanically, chemically, and electrically speaking...

On the other hand, using a GUN in earnest tends to be a tad more emotionally (and therefore magically) engaging than your average drive in a car.  Proximity has a lot to do with it, too.  Harry's actually TOUCHING the gun, generally in his right hand (the hand that projects magical energy) to boot.  In fact, the gun is small enough that it's actually going to be encompassed by his bioelectric field (a very mild, but totally individual field of electromagnetic energy that the human body produces).

The car is a much larger (relative) object that is (relatively) farther away, even when Harry is driving under stress--and even so, the Beetle (and other cars) have broken down on-stage more often than guns have actually jammed on-stage.

And there are other factors involved of which Harry is not entirely aware.  Alas, that the viewpoint character is non-omniscient.

The rules aren't changing.  The proper circumstances just haven't all aligned the way they have in the other instances of guns glitching.

Jim

Read back a bit, it was quoted already IIRC. Jim stated that the rules are not changing, but the reason Harry's assumptions about magical interference dont work out alot is because he doesnt fully understand the physics of it.

Cars and guns are not on the same level. A car is objectively far more complex. Even just the engine.

Statistically, is matter of fact that in the Dresden files, guns work without fail an order of magnitude more often than they fail based on all the instances we have seen in the books. Its not that it never ever ever happens, but that it happens so rarely it basically doesn't matter much.

You are lookign at the right WOJ, but I think it's directly contradicting several of your conclusions

[Mr. Death]

So if I'm reading Quantus's post right, Shift8, you're using a WOJ where Jim is explicitly talking about why Harry's magical field does affect guns, to argue that Harry's magical field does not affect guns?

He is not saying Harry is wrong. He is saying there are other factors. He is saying, with direct and explicit certainty, that guns can be and will be fouled up by magic, just that it doesn't happen as often because of particular circumstances.

[Shift8]

So if I'm reading Quantus's post right, Shift8, you're using a WOJ where Jim is explicitly talking about why Harry's magical field does affect guns, to argue that Harry's magical field does not affect guns?

He is not saying Harry is wrong. He is saying there are other factors. He is saying, with direct and explicit certainty, that guns can be and will be fouled up by magic, just that it doesn't happen as often because of particular circumstances.

Yet I am not stating the effect isn't real. Im stating its practically not all that important. Again, for all intents and purposes. Based on the use of guns in the DV, the murphonic effect is not a big enough problem to make a rational argument for not using more guns. Simple as that.

[Quantus]

Yet I am not stating the effect isn't real. Im stating its practically not all that important. Again, for all intents and purposes. Based on the use of guns in the DV, the murphonic effect is not a big enough problem to make a rational argument for not using more guns. Simple as that.

I think the last sentence of the WOJ is very specifically refuting that assertion, which was part of the forum post that sparked the WOj in the first place.  It's not that it isnt a real concern, it is just that circumstances in the stories have not yet aligned to have it appear on stage yet.   

[Mr. Death]

Yet I am not stating the effect isn't real. Im stating its practically not all that important. Again, for all intents and purposes. Based on the use of guns in the DV, the murphonic effect is not a big enough problem to make a rational argument for not using more guns. Simple as that.

Jim is saying, directly, that a wizard handling a gun in his hand and using it is likely to cause a malfunction. He lays out several reasons for that.

If I'm not mistaken, you're still arguing that wizards (i.e., the type of person Jim's WOJ says would have trouble with guns) should use guns (i.e., the items that Jim's WOJ just said wizards would have trouble with).

Do you not see the issue with your assertion here?

[Shift8]

I think the last sentence of the WOJ is very specifically refuting that assertion, which was part of the forum post that sparked the WOj in the first place.  It's not that it isnt a real concern, it is just that circumstances in the stories have not yet aligned to have it appear on stage yet.

Which is kind of my point really. If those circumstances haven't aligned, then they must be so specific as to not be much a a problem in general.