Author Topic: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.  (Read 33164 times)

Offline Shift8

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Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« on: July 12, 2017, 10:29:51 PM »
I forget which book it was but there was admission at some point that Dresden's reliance on revolvers due to their simplicity wasn't really necessary, and was a result of Harry's relative ignorance on guns at the start of the series or something.

We've seen alot of Wardens etc pack some pretty serious firepower throughout the series. So question is, when is Dresden going to get an assault rifle or something.

His enemies certainly use them. Micheal of course got the bad end of that. Seems about time Dresden and crew assault rifle up on the reg.

Actually this is part of an even bigger question of mine that I have wondered for some time. I can see why dresden doesnt pack a long gun everywhere since it would be inconvenient compared to a pistol. Although there have been a number of situations in the book where It might have been a good idea to get a rifle since he knew what he was going into. Context would be the determiner etc.

But how come the WC doesn't use full on geared out Wardens on high-end missions? Like it would seem totally logical to have Wardens who are going to war with the Ramps (for example) to basically just look like soldiers from any mortal army, save they can also do magic.

Keep in mind I am not saying this would make sense all of the time. Just a little confused why we haven't seen something like it except form singular characters.

Additionally this question is meant to be broad. Just a in general query about desire to increase the various characters firepower.

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Offline Rasins

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2017, 03:57:22 PM »
I can think of a couple of reasons.

From a Doyalist perspective, Jim just may not know guns.  We know he's been criticized for using the wrong terms in books (Magazine vs clip).

From a Watsonian perspective for Harry, it could be just that he doesn't WANT a long gun.  Now that he has the Winchester, that could change, but we really don't know.  Also, I don't know the laws in Chicago, but we know Harry doesn't have a concealed carry license, so carrying a long gun would be out of the question.  He even tells Eb not to have his shotgun in the rear window of his truck.

As to the Wardens being fully decked out ... you have to remember that the Wardens are actually police.  So Large scale, coordinated efforts aren't really all that common.  Most Wardens can take down a single warlock most of the time, so there isn't any real reason to heavily equip them.  And really since the warlocks primarily will use their abilities, the old guard have the magical swords that can cut through enchantments.  So they don't need much more.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2017, 04:00:20 PM »
Also, long guns means two hands.

Most wizards use their hands for magic, or at least to hold staves and rods and other foci.

A handgun can leave one hand free to defend oneself -- hold up a shield while you're aiming -- while a long gun means you have to take a hand off it to do so. If you need to put up a magical shield, seconds count.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2017, 05:09:30 PM »
Also, long guns means two hands.
Most wizards use their hands for magic, or at least to hold staves and rods and other foci.
A handgun can leave one hand free to defend oneself -- hold up a shield while you're aiming -- while a long gun means you have to take a hand off it to do so. If you need to put up a magical shield, seconds count.

A shield focus probably could be mounted on a wrist gauntlet to leave the left hand more free than Harry's bracelet focus does, with only slight changes to the design. If someone managed to do that and shape their shield with a slot or hole to the far side to shoot from (sort of like the Jackals in Halo, except they still use pistols and a hand-held shield) it could be quite formidable.

It does still pose a problem for carrying a staff, though, and reloads could be tricky.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2017, 08:06:25 PM »
I forget which book it was but there was admission at some point that Dresden's reliance on revolvers due to their simplicity wasn't really necessary, and was a result of Harry's relative ignorance on guns at the start of the series or something.
It was Harry's ignorance, but admittedly he was parroting a very common prejudice against semi-automatics from revolver enthusiasts.  The theory is that Semiautomatics statistically jam significantly more than revolvers (which are nearly impossible to jam); and to a wizard any such difference would be magnified by the Murphionic effect on all wizards.  This is a common prejudice in a world (both RL and DF) were "Tried and True" rules because their lives are on the line, and trust comes slow.  It took a long time for modern magazine designed to win over various police forces, for example.  This was Murphy's point in SG, that actual, current, 21st century ones have largely solved the jamming issues. 

BUT:  Even though there existed electric lights in The Deeps strong enough to withstand a wizard duel, Marcone and Gard still decided to control their bombs with clockwork.  When you have people running around who subconsciously warp reality itself so much that technology breaks near them (my interpretation of the murphionic effect), the risk assessment calculations change a great deal. 

Quote
We've seen alot of Wardens etc pack some pretty serious firepower throughout the series. So question is, when is Dresden going to get an assault rifle or something.

His enemies certainly use them. Micheal of course got the bad end of that. Seems about time Dresden and crew assault rifle up on the reg.

Actually this is part of an even bigger question of mine that I have wondered for some time. I can see why dresden doesnt pack a long gun everywhere since it would be inconvenient compared to a pistol. Although there have been a number of situations in the book where It might have been a good idea to get a rifle since he knew what he was going into. Context would be the determiner etc.

But how come the WC doesn't use full on geared out Wardens on high-end missions? Like it would seem totally logical to have Wardens who are going to war with the Ramps (for example) to basically just look like soldiers from any mortal army, save they can also do magic.
In some ways they do, Changes showed that the Council wears modern military harnesses, with the speculation by Harry that modern military harnesses are actually modeled after the Council's gear.

As far as firearms (and grenades, etc) it always described as a generation gap:  There is the Old Guard, most of which predate the invention of modern semi-automatic weapon, and the New Guard who are far more progressive thinkers and all carry modern military weapons (Carlos is the poster-boy for this group on page, but there are always mentions of there being plenty of others.  The change is happening, and the War presumably forced them to shed a lot of pointless habits, but this is still a gerontocratic organization where the average age is measured in centuries, and most of the member predate the widespread use of electricity, and as a collective whole they tend to think they already know everything worth knowing, and know it better than anyone else alive. 

So in other words, it's the same reason my grandmother refuses to get a cell phone:  she lasted this long without one and doesnt need some young buck telling her what to do.  :P
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Offline Shift8

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2017, 09:37:53 PM »
With the resources the WC has they could get some really awesome stuff when they finally modernize to the max.

IMO, a team of wardens that is going into a very hot situation should look no different really than Seal Team Six. Helmets, rifles, optics, fatigues, E-SAPI plates, etc. General purpose machine guns, etc. Plus whatever swagatronious enchanted gear they can some up with.

M4 with underbarrel blasting rod anyone?

Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2017, 08:42:12 AM »
I think you're asking the wrong question here. Why isn't the WC employing more mercenaries with guns so wizards have their hands free to do some more wizarding?

Offline Quantus

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2017, 12:26:50 PM »
I think you're asking the wrong question here. Why isn't the WC employing more mercenaries with guns so wizards have their hands free to do some more wizarding?
Who says they dont? ;)
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Offline Shift8

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2017, 01:05:41 PM »
All I know is this: an increase in standard firepower that doesnt require magic would boost WC power significantly.

The great strength of magic is its distinct utility compared to tech. It can do many things tech cant, yet.

But the weakness is its inconsistency. Every wizard is different etc. This creates a tactical problem in the sense that losing  single wizard in a team might be a critical blow. Akin to losing a queen in chess.

Id love to see how a Skin-walker handles being hit by an AT-4. Also who needs a black staff when I could just use a drone to AGM-114N any Vampire complex. Or anything else for that matter. Assuming its sufficiently resilient to magic, you could maybe even have it flying around in the never never and just have it pop out of a way wherever you need it, which would increase range and also avoid mortal authorities.

Plus smaller more less conspicuous civilian drones would be of significant use to all parties in the DV I would think. Simply for surveillance.

Things the wardens need:

-Standard assault rifle.
-Recoiless rifle or rocket launcher for big nasty hairy things. And small gods. 
-Standard non-enchanted body armor with E-SAPI protection for wizards who cant make Dresden Duster 9000.
-More grenades.
-Thermal and night vision devices.
-Drones.
-short range wearable coms, such as throat mics.
-Grenade launchers such as M203 or M320.




Offline Quantus

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2017, 01:13:27 PM »
All I know is this: an increase in standard firepower that doesnt require magic would boost WC power significantly.

The great strength of magic is its distinct utility compared to tech. It can do many things tech cant, yet.

But the weakness is its inconsistency. Every wizard is different etc. This creates a tactical problem in the sense that losing  single wizard in a team might be a critical blow. Akin to losing a queen in chess.

Id love to see how a Skin-walker handles being hit by an AT-4. Also who needs a black staff when I could just use a drone to AGM-114N any Vampire complex. Or anything else for that matter. Assuming its sufficiently resilient to magic, you could maybe even have it flying around in the never never and just have it pop out of a way wherever you need it, which would increase range and also avoid mortal authorities.

Plus smaller more less conspicuous civilian drones would be of significant use to all parties in the DV I would think. Simply for surveillance.

Things the wardens need:

-Standard assault rifle.
-Recoiless rifle or rocket launcher for big nasty hairy things. And small gods. 
-Standard non-enchanted body armor with E-SAPI protection for wizards who cant make Dresden Duster 9000.
-More grenades.
-Thermal and night vision devices.
-Drones.
-short range wearable coms, such as throat mics.
-Grenade launchers such as M203 or M320.


Everything you describe just plain sounds like Vadderung and Co's style more than the Council of Wizards. 
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Offline Shift8

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2017, 01:15:21 PM »

Everything you describe just plain sounds like Vadderung and Co's style more than the Council of Wizards.

Yeah! Which would be a big improvement. Remember Vadderung taught the original merlin. Must know what hes doing.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2017, 02:23:36 PM »
Yeah! Which would be a big improvement. Remember Vadderung taught the original merlin. Must know what hes doing.
Basically you're acting like the hidebound, centuries old order of wizards to not act like an order of wizards.

They're not a military. They're just not the kind of organization that would do most of what you're suggesting.

Also, doing all that kind of upgrading is going to get mortal authorities to notice. The White Council doesn't particularly want that kind of notice, but creating a military is going to get peoples' attention.
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Offline Shift8

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2017, 04:39:28 PM »
Basically you're acting like the hidebound, centuries old order of wizards to not act like an order of wizards.

They're not a military. They're just not the kind of organization that would do most of what you're suggesting.

Also, doing all that kind of upgrading is going to get mortal authorities to notice. The White Council doesn't particularly want that kind of notice, but creating a military is going to get peoples' attention.

Im not saying the WC would do this, but that they should.

And the WC is functionally a nation state in the sense that they both wage war and do police operations. They already act as if they are/have a military. The question is what kind of military they want to be.

The only bit of gear on that list that would be even remotely difficult to get would be the predator drone and the AT-4. Thats it. Everything else on that list I could go out and buy myself without anyone giving a hoot. I just need the deep financial capacity of the WC. Not to mention that the acquisition difficulties are more or less moot, since everyone from Murphy to Vadderung seems to be able to get whatever they need whenever they need it. The Ramps certainly didnt give a crap about what they purchased, they just got it. Quite frankly the Ramps having modern weapons in spades is what kept them relevant during the war given their low number of sorcerers.

The WC needs to figure out what century its in. They are doing alright, but they could do alot better with their deep pocketbook.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2017, 05:42:02 PM »
Seems to me I read somewhere that actual war between supernatural nations is a pretty rare thing.

That being said, having a standing army doesn't make sense.  Having something like Archangel makes much more sense.  A smaller team of heavy hitters that can do surgical strikes.

Then you have your para-military police force that can be called on to fight.  Kind of like the Jedi or the Wardens.
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Offline Bacchus

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Re: Better Guns for Dresden and Co.
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2017, 06:27:32 PM »
Most of the wizards in positions of authority were born pre civil war. Give it 50 years and the younger generation will be teaching newcomers to wear enchanted military body armor and carry  flash bang grenades and concealed handguns at minimum.

flash bangs specifically would probably do amazing because most shields wouldn't block bright light or loud sounds and they would screw up mental concentration.

also Ive always wanted harry to get some enchanted firefighting turnout boots, grenades, vampbraces, maybe shin guards and some type of head protection. Those would go along way to protecting his weak spots without encumbering him too much.  He is way to vulnerable to an ambush