Author Topic: Nemesis Factions...?  (Read 6472 times)

Offline Smaug with OCD

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Nemesis Factions...?
« on: July 11, 2017, 08:28:01 PM »
Rereading TC, and I came across the scene between Harry and Rashid while on the docks and Demon Reach. Rashid remarks on a number of events that have him wondering whether Harry is part of the Black Council/Nemfected. We know that Harry isn't. We also know that most, if not all, of Harry's cases involved him working against the Outsiders. One thing I have issues with is the idea that Rashid wouldn't know that most of these fall into that category. So... does him wondering if Harry is working for the bad guys imply multiple Outsider factions?
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Offline forumghost

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2017, 12:18:19 AM »
I'd say that it implies that it's hard to differentiate  Harry taking to the status quo with a baseball bat to Nemesis and/or anyone else doing the same thing- from the outside looking in anyway.

Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2017, 07:32:53 AM »
Rashid probably looked into Harry's history and from his perspective, it raised questions. He's uniquely qualified to see the signs of Nemesis meddling. It's his job after all.

To his credit: He didn't immediately kill him, he did ask questions first.  ;)

Offline Mira

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2017, 11:06:55 AM »
Rashid probably looked into Harry's history and from his perspective, it raised questions. He's uniquely qualified to see the signs of Nemesis meddling. It's his job after all.

To his credit: He didn't immediately kill him, he did ask questions first.  ;)

Rashid knowsHarry's history, but he also knows as Gatekeeper how tricky the Enemy is and that anyone can become it's victim.. So he examined him with the Eye to make sure he wasn't.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2017, 12:45:20 PM »
Rereading TC, and I came across the scene between Harry and Rashid while on the docks and Demon Reach. Rashid remarks on a number of events that have him wondering whether Harry is part of the Black Council/Nemfected. We know that Harry isn't. We also know that most, if not all, of Harry's cases involved him working against the Outsiders. One thing I have issues with is the idea that Rashid wouldn't know that most of these fall into that category. So... does him wondering if Harry is working for the bad guys imply multiple Outsider factions?
Im fairly confident that Rashid /knew/ precisely what the real deal with those events were (significantly more than Harry himself) and was only listing them to illustrate that from a certain outside exterior perspective he looks awfully suspicious. Rashid ending that conversation with the cryptic "Not Yet your Time to Challenge the Council" bit cemented that idea for me.


Separately, regarding the possibility of Factions within the Outside:  To the best of the Council's common Knowledge, Nope.  That is specifically the only thing they Know, per CD:
Quote from: CD Ch. 23
“Creatures out of the Nevernever are a part of our reality, our universe. They can get pretty bizarre, but they have a membership card. Outsiders come from someplace else.”
[...]
I sighed. “That little creep Peabody dropped one Outsider on a meeting of the Council. The best wizards in the world were all in that one room and took it on together, and the thing still managed to murder a bunch of them. It’s hard to make magic stick to Outsiders. It’s hard to make them leave. It’s hard to hurt them. It’s hard to make them die. They’re insanely violent, insanely powerful, and just plain insane. But that isn’t what makes them dangerous.”

“Uh,” Thomas said. “It isn’t? Then what is?”

“They work together,” I said quietly. “Near as we can tell, they all work together.”


Thomas was silent for a moment as he considered the implications of that. “Work together,” he said. “To do what?”

I shook my head. “Whatever they do. Their actions are not always predicated on rationality—or at least, that’s what the Council thinks.”

Of course they can always be spectacularly wrong, particularly on this topic.  Several of us have floated various theories for tunrcoat Outsiders hiding in plain sight in the mortal world (Mac, Mother Winter, The Blackstaff, The Gates themselves, Mac...)
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Offline Mira

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2017, 01:34:01 PM »
Im fairly confident that Rashid /knew/ precisely what the real deal with those events were (significantly more than Harry himself) and was only listing them to illustrate that from a certain outside exterior perspective he looks awfully suspicious. Rashid ending that conversation with the cryptic "Not Yet your Time to Challenge the Council" bit cemented that idea for me.


Separately, regarding the possibility of Factions within the Outside:  To the best of the Council's common Knowledge, Nope.  That is specifically the only thing they Know, per CD:
Of course they can always be spectacularly wrong, particularly on this topic.  Several of us have floated various theories for tunrcoat Outsiders hiding in plain sight in the mortal world (Mac, Mother Winter, The Blackstaff, The Gates themselves, Mac...)

I thought it was "mordite"  that Peabody turned loose on the courtroom...

Page 387 Turn Coat

Quote
I'd seen almost exactly the same thing happen once before, years ago.
"Get back!" I screamed.  "Its mordite!'

Which is interesting, mordite isn't an Outsider, but it comes from the Outside.  We know this from the duel between Harry and Ortega back in Death Masks.. That is the "years ago," Harry was referring to..

Ortega defines what mordite is...

Quote
"Mordite is not from this galaxy or this universe.  It is not from our reality."
I had reservations about Ortega's presence on the home-team roster, but I nodded.  "It's from the Outside.  It's. . . congealed antilife.

It is also the stuff that made up the crown of Hades.. So did Harry just misspeak?  Or did he mean that Peabody had to have gotten his little ink bottle of mordite from an Outsider?  I agree though, they all work together..

Offline Quantus

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2017, 01:48:02 PM »
I thought it was "mordite"  that Peabody turned loose on the courtroom...

Page 387 Turn Coat

Which is interesting, mordite isn't an Outsider, but it comes from the Outside.  We know this from the duel between Harry and Ortega back in Death Masks.. That is the "years ago," Harry was referring to..

Ortega defines what mordite is...

It is also the stuff that made up the crown of Hades.. So did Harry just misspeak?  Or did he mean that Peabody had to have gotten his little ink bottle of mordite from an Outsider?  I agree though, they all work together..
It was a Mistfiend, a denizen of the "far reaches of the NN, that in turn had been "Infused" with Mordite somehow.  He shouted Mordite based on the way it killed the first things, but it was later tha it started moving and they all realized it was a creature.

Quote from: TC Ch 49
"The Senior Council managed to contain and banish the mordite-infused mistfiend, a rare and dangerous gaseous being from the far reaches of the Nevernever, before it had killed more than forty or fifty wizards.
 
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Offline Mira

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2017, 03:23:04 PM »
It was a Mistfiend, a denizen of the "far reaches of the NN, that in turn had been "Infused" with Mordite somehow.  He shouted Mordite based on the way it killed the first things, but it was later tha it started moving and they all realized it was a creature.
 

But can a Misfiend be considered an Outsider?  While it was effective in killing, I'm not sure of how intelligent it was.. By that I mean it killed but it seemed more like mindless reaction to life, than planned aggression from an intelligent predator.   So far all the Outsiders that Harry has encountered have been intelligent beings, warriors if you will from the Outside..  The Mistfiend didn't seem to be in that league..  So are all creatures from the Outside considered Outsiders?

Offline Quantus

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2017, 04:57:23 PM »
But can a Misfiend be considered an Outsider?  While it was effective in killing, I'm not sure of how intelligent it was.. By that I mean it killed but it seemed more like mindless reaction to life, than planned aggression from an intelligent predator.   So far all the Outsiders that Harry has encountered have been intelligent beings, warriors if you will from the Outside..  The Mistfiend didn't seem to be in that league..  So are all creatures from the Outside considered Outsiders?
If it's from the NN then it's not from the Outside at all.  It modified somehow with the Mordite, but apparently standard mistfields are an Inside thing.
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2017, 02:35:05 PM »
If it's from the NN then it's not from the Outside at all.  It modified somehow with the Mordite, but apparently standard mistfields are an Inside thing.

Oh, I wonder if it was the Fomor that made this modification.  They are the only ones I've noticed so far that are known for making modification to beings. 

This would be further evidence of them working with outsiders.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2017, 02:37:31 PM »
Oh, I wonder if it was the Fomor that made this modification.  They are the only ones I've noticed so far that are known for making modification to beings. 

This would be further evidence of them working with outsiders.
Oooh, hadnt considered that, but Yes it would absolutely make sense. 
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2017, 04:45:05 PM »
Oooh, hadnt considered that, but Yes it would absolutely make sense. 

And that would connect Peabody to the Outsiders too.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Nemesis Factions...?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2017, 05:54:18 PM »
And that would connect Peabody to the Outsiders too.
Well, I was connecting him via the assumption that his "Black Council" and Cowl's "Circle" are the same thing, so his connection to the outsiders and the Fomors would have a Common Source in Cowl's faction. 
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