The most frightening Denarian yet?

[jonas]

*she can't just suddenly ignore her own logical nature that knows She'll get drug to oblivion> that's the point your missing in your reply. it doesn't matter if she wants to kill the fox, she knows the fox won't let her so she won't try. Original supposition was That she would consume everything by going to far. I'm supplying she'd have to change to ignore the current status quo.

[Quantus]

*she can't just suddenly ignore her own logical nature that knows She'll get drug to oblivion

And if she thought the Gates would remain Defended (and whatever other Bargains are currently binding her would be taken care of), she'd not hesitate for a single second. 

[jonas]

And if she thought the Gates would remain Defended (and whatever other Bargains are currently binding her would be taken care of), she'd not hesitate for a single second.

And that connects to the choice or the change how? this is why I hate getting off topic. it's not addressing the original issues and now it's not addressing my rebuttal either. It's driving home a point slightly to the left of mine.
If it's not readily apparent, I'm also getting confused...

it's just surrendering to said Nature.  It's no different than if Mab went too far in her Purpose and triggered the Titania Failsafe, it's not because she became Different, it's just that what she already was went too far.

It was never stipulated in your original supposition that any such condition would take effect before she 'had an opportunity'. You said simply if she did, it would be in her nature. But, she has the troops to do so NOW so it's not in her nature to break the balance, which if she tried to overrun earth it would. Overrunning earth might be in her nature, but just doing it is without regard is not. Drinking blood might be in Reds nature, but giving into it entirely or resisting it to remain a conscious minded being can't both be status quo.

[Quantus]

And that connects to the choice or the change how? this is why I hate getting off topic. it's not addressing the original issues and now it's not addressing my rebuttal either. It's driving home a point slightly to the left of mine.
If it's not readily apparent, I'm also getting confused...

OK.  If that's the case Im sorry,  I must be missing your point.  What is your point?

[jonas]

OK.  If that's the case Im sorry,  I must be missing your point.  What is your point?

Let you know when I find it.

[Quantus]

Let you know when I find it.

If it helps, what I /thought/ was your point was that the the devolution of a typical Red Court Vampire to a Blood Slave constitutes a fundamental enough shift in their Nature to require a Free Will level Choice to make it happen, and were using that as evidence that they still /had/ free will (and Souls?). 

I think it spawned from the initial discussion of what qualifies for a Human (Human, Genoskwa, Wampire?) for the purposes of a Host, and you asserted that Reds were equally qualified as Whites by having Free Will and being native to the Mortal World.

Which I take to mean that the Genoska is a kind of human, like the White Court.

And red court vampires? They live here, they possess freedom of will. They may be under the yoke of a different sort of hunger but they leave real flesh and blood corpses and are in possession of choices. Doth that make them human Too? Me thinks your blanketing too much with 'human' that's not.
*to cut off any arguments against that fact. The Red King, progenitor of all their kind slowly devolved into less and less control over his hunger. that kind of continual change and need for the royalty to keep themselves in check proves they aren't set in stone. They can always fight the hunger, if they don't then they become blood slaves without a will of their own.

[jonas]

If it helps, what I /thought/ was your point was that the the devolution of a typical Red Court Vampire to a Blood Slave constitutes a fundamental enough shift in their Nature to require a Free Will level Choice to make it happen, and were using that as evidence that they still /had/ free will (and Souls?).

More that they weren't devoid of choice. They could choose to give in, or they could choose to fight it. the fighting it, if it really is a natural devolution, is a stark choice to make to me. Not everything on the mortal plain possesses a human soul, but that doesn't mean they have nothing. Tera being a relevant oddity, Did she not make choices and adapt at times? She choose to make the Alpha's yes? Granted I think she's totally a bad guy in FM, but that's just my crazy idea's lol.

I think it spawned from the initial discussion of what qualifies for a Human (Human, Genoskwa, Wampire?) for the purposes of a Host, and you asserted that Reds were equally qualified as Whites by having Free Will and being native to the Mortal World.
 And red court vampires? They live here, they possess freedom of will. They may be under the yoke of a different sort of hunger but they leave real flesh and blood corpses and are in possession of choices. Doth that make them human Too? Me thinks your blanketing too much with 'human' that's not.
*to cut off any arguments against that fact. The Red King, progenitor of all their kind slowly devolved into less and less control over his hunger. that kind of continual change and need for the royalty to keep themselves in check proves they aren't set in stone. They can always fight the hunger, if they don't then they become blood slaves without a will of their own.

[Quantus]

More that they weren't devoid of choice. They could choose to give in, or they could choose to fight it. the fighting it, if it really is a natural devolution, is a stark choice to make to me.

I think it boils down to the idea that they only get that Choice the once, specifically at the point where they Kill; after that they are just dealing with the fallout and consequences of that Choice.  Changling style, to my mind.

Relevant to the denarian topic, I think Susan could wield the Sword as a half-ramp but would not be able to after the change even setting aside the Rampire issues with articles of Faith....WAIT A MINUTE!

Would a Denarian Coin count as an Item of Faith against creatures with that Catch like Ramps and Blamps, like some sort of evil Holy Water?

Not everything on the mortal plain possesses a human soul, but that doesn't mean they have nothing. Tera being a relevant oddity, Did she not make choices and adapt at times? She choose to make the Alpha's yes? Granted I think she's totally a bad guy in FM, but that's just my crazy idea's lol.

This is where the Free Will conversations usually get bogged down, as it falls into the long-established philosophic pit of divergent definitions and/or levels of Free Will as opposed to Setting specific issues. So, take all the following as just the best DV fit Ive seen, but not anything like a settled answer (easier to find bigfoot riding a unicorn )

The distinction comes down to the idea of Philospohic Agency, as compared to the DV style Free Will.  Mab and Bob and Tera and anything soulless can freely Act and interact and make day to day choices in response to their environment.  But they will always act and respond according to the same script (ie Nature); they are on the Deterministic side of the AI debate.  Mab can plot and scheme, and can react quickly and out-think most things that exist, but she will always react the same way given the exact same history and circumstances.  Mab is more rigid that some because of the additionally rigid nature of Winter, as opposed to Summer whose nature is to try new things and see what sticks rather than plot a glacier course (This is why I think Mother Summer retires but Mother Winter does not, fwiw). 

The best example was to compare Mab to Lucifer.  Both crazy powerful and entrusted with specific cosmic Purposes.  Lucifer was given a Job and (presumably) a specifically designed personality to accomplish that Purpose.  But he also had a Soul, thus Free Will and thus a (single, shitty) Choice: he could either stay On-Script, or else Fall and ever-after be able to exercise some amount of Free Will (since any Act of Free Will by an angel is by definition rebellion). Popular theology is that this was never part of The Plan, but Lucifer could and Did Choose the Left Hand path, and the Universe had to deal with the consequences.  By comparison Mab physically Could Not choose to go Off-script in the first place. 

[jonas]

The distinction comes down to the idea of Philospohic Agency, as compared to the DV style Free Will.  Mab and Bob and Tera and anything soulless can freely Act and interact and make day to day choices in response to their environment.  But they will always act and respond according to the same script (ie Nature); they are on the Deterministic side of the AI debate.

Ahhh but if it was part of natures script then why did GK add it to the list of should not normally happen events in TC?
Not sure I like the Lucy comparison, couldn't put my finger on why though. A lot of these things are valid but, i'd challenge 'what's in their nature' on anything as uniquely monstrous as the Reds. Harry see's them full sight and says each one is unique to their own particular brand of madness. and since they are not natural and every one is unique under the sight(which i'd bet regular animals are not) they can't have a script in nature. Not from nature to be scripted. So even assuming they can't 'change their script' each script there is unique.

[Quantus]

Ahhh but if it was part of natures script then why did GK add it to the list of should not normally happen events in TC?

You mean his reference to a Nemfected Lady? That falls into the category of /Outside/ influences (well, external, but in that case Outside as well) changing them.  That initial WOJ establishing the Free Will bit with Mab also mentioned that non-free-willed creatures (has to be a better term for that...) can be Changed by chronic exposure to Mortals, but thats more a matter of accumulated Change

Aurora and Maeve didnt Choose to Change their natures, they had a Change forced on them.  Same with Bob, he said that Kemmler Twisted his Nature, but he couldnt Choose to make that change of his own initiative.  For that matter, strong arguments have been made that he could not Choose to Forget on his own, even though he can be ordered to. 

Not sure I like the Lucy comparison, couldn't put my finger on why though.

The only reason I use it is that Lucifer is the best mirror I can think of, having the same cosmically mandated Purpose like Mab, but with a Soul, which in turn is supposed to the be what grants mortal's their Free Will Superpower.

A lot of these things are valid but, i'd challenge 'what's in their nature' on anything as uniquely monstrous as the Reds. Harry see's them full sight and says each one is unique to their own particular brand of madness. and since they are not natural and every one is unique under the sight(which i'd bet regular animals are not) they can't have a script in nature. Not from nature to be scripted. So even assuming they can't 'change their script' each script there is unique.

I think you are conflating a creature's "Nature" with a creatures place in the "Natural Order"?  None of the creatures in question are "natural" in the sense of evolution or even being native to the Mortal World (fae being a unique exception per WOJ), but that doesnt mean they dont have a personal Nature (animal or otherwise).


Side Note: Regarding the "uniqueness" of the Red Court vamps, I see now the passage you're talking about.  Id always taken that line to just mean that each "flabby, greesy bat-creature" had a lot of physical variation, but within the same basic framework.  Especially in light of Arrianna's Sight description in the same passage as just being a particularity flabby and greasy specimen of the normal true form of a Rampire.  But I could be wrong on that.  Regardless Im not sure that variation points to mortality or Free will, just a less structured/symmetrical species; id expect similar variation from a group of Demons or other NN denizens with less rigid taxonomy. 

[jonas]

You mean his reference to a Nemfected Lady?

No, his statement about college students being taught enough real magic to transform into a pack of wolves. Tera's actions.

Would a Denarian Coin count as an Item of Faith against creatures with that Catch like Ramps and Blamps, like some sort of evil Holy Water?

to someone like Nic or Deidre? Probably. Almost certainly since it's based entirely on perspective faith.
Wow, I just got a Yeats reference there, from our convo. The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity. It's Murph and Nic in SG.

[forumghost]

I dunno if it would for Nico and the Nickelheads tbh.

To them the Coins are probably more like tools /weapons then anything.

Now if one of Nick's Squires got a hold of one, then I could see it.

[LordDresden2]

And red court vampires? They live here, they possess freedom of will. They may be under the yoke of a different sort of hunger but they leave real flesh and blood corpses and are in possession of choices. Doth that make them human Too? Me thinks your blanketing too much with 'human' that's not.

Red Vampires are manifestly not human.  But your comparisons are irrelevant to the question of humanity.  Red Vampires cannot be soulgazed.  They do not have free will in the human sense.  They leave some kind of corpse behind, but so do Sidhe, and they aren't human.  As far as we know, Red Vampires don't produce a tech bane when they use magic, unless they intend it.

All the indications point to the Forest People and White Court being humans.  Nothing points to humanity for the Red Court.

[jonas]

Red Vampires are manifestly not human.  But your comparisons are irrelevant to the question of humanity.  Red Vampires cannot be soulgazed.  They do not have free will in the human sense.  They leave some kind of corpse behind, but so do Sidhe, and they aren't human.  As far as we know, Red Vampires don't produce a tech bane when they use magic, unless they intend it.

All the indications point to the Forest People and White Court being humans.  Nothing points to humanity for the Red Court.

nothing points to a forest person being a 'human'. Or WCV and Wizards being pure human for that matter.
And Sidhe don't live here, but still have a body, still have some soul in there make up iirc. After all, a lifetime in the NN shoulda turned the queens to goo by woj on eating fae food, but it didn't did it
And as Q's verey good reasoning points out, it's unlikely but still unprovable Ramps don't have choices.

[LordDresden2]

Define the ability to choose to resist the hunger vs blood slave then? What your saying there amounts to, they're more bat than human.  Purely by what you said, Susan wouldn't have had anything left to choose from after one feeding.

She didn't.  Once she killed for blood, Susan Ramirez was finished, a Red Court monster with her memories and a mind superficially similar to Susan's was in the process of taking her place.  If Harry had waited more than a few moments to kill her, the thing that took her place would have been just as much his and Maggie's enemy as the Red King.

Maybe you got the 'in line with what's shown to the viewer from perspective', but is it really what's shown canonically? You want talk about soul gazes and people who do or don't have one, Harry avoids hades for fear of one, despite the many claims Mab would have no soul(certainly she is all Sidhe) but at the same time Harry as never met her eye's, and again has intentionally looked away when she challenged him to do so. The Reds and their hypno eyes more imply whatever they have is wolf to our deer, we get caught in the headlights. So it doesn't always get a cut and dry answer.

Things can pass through eye-contact in the DV besides soulgazes.  But soulgazes either are or not.

The White Court 'vampires' are fundamentally different than the Black and Red Courts.  When you're converted into one of them, you, the original human you, dies.  What takes your place is something else, albeit made out of your physical and mental remains.

You don't get turned into a White Court 'vampire' at all, you're born that way by ordinary sexual reproduction.  They're not even strictly vampires at all, in that sense, just predators.