Do Changelings Have Souls?

[Phydestrius]

So, it's kind of been established that any mortal being from the physical world has a soul, but a changeling isn't entirely mortal, so do they even get souls in the first place? And even then, when it comes to make "The Choice", whether to become fully Fae or fully mortal, what kind of effect would that have on their soul? I mean, if they became human their soul would change, but if they became fully fae, does that mean that their soul ceases to exist because they lose their free will? Does that count as their death? How would this get explained?

Also, I'm reasonably sure all of this is basic information, but I'm not sure.

[Quantus]

Yes, they do.  They (eventually) loose them if they Choose their Fae side, or they become fully Human if they choose the Mortal side. Otherwise a former Changeling could not become a Knight of the court.  If they never become consciously aware of their Heritage then their Choice becomes a subconscious one, per WOJ.  The same is the case for a person Infected by the Red Court, they still retain their Souls until they Choose their Vampire side by Killing and Feeding the first time. 

A Notable exception to that is the White Court.  They are Born, never Turned, and retain their soul for their Lifetime (as much as a Mortal does, at least; there are philosophic arguments that a person can loose their soul via monstrous but mundane methods).  At one point hey are referred to as "Half-born", as an umbrella term for those with mixed Mortal and Immortal heritage.   

[Rasins]

Yes, they do.  They (eventually) loose them if they Choose their Fae side, or they become fully Human if they choose the Mortal side. Otherwise a former Changeling could not become a Knight of the court.  If they never become consciously aware of their Heritage then their Choice becomes a subconscious one, per WOJ.  The same is the case for a person Infected by the Red Court, they still retain their Souls until they Choose their Vampire side by Killing and Feeding the first time. 

A Notable exception to that is the White Court.  They are Born, never Turned, and retain their soul for their Lifetime (as much as a Mortal does, at least; there are philosophic arguments that a person can loose their soul via monstrous but mundane methods).  At one point hey are referred to as "Half-born", as an umbrella term for those with mixed Mortal and Immortal heritage.   

I'm unconvinced that they lose their soul.

Then again we have to define our terms.  When I see "lose their soul" I see that they had one, and then it was gone.  either over time, or suddenly, doesn't matter.  It's like if you have an icecream and it gets taken from you, or it just melts away.  Either way, you no longer have it.

On the other hand, to Lose ones soul could mean that you still have (ARE?) a soul, but through your actions, it has been bequeathed to another (ie. Satan?).

Jim even said he wasn't sure if Mab still has her soul, suggesting that she could, but maybe not.  Not that it clarifies anything.

[Quantus]

I'm unconvinced that they lose their soul.

Then again we have to define our terms.  When I see "lose their soul" I see that they had one, and then it was gone.  either over time, or suddenly, doesn't matter.  It's like if you have an icecream and it gets taken from you, or it just melts away.  Either way, you no longer have it.

On the other hand, to Lose ones soul could mean that you still have (ARE?) a soul, but through your actions, it has been bequeathed to another (ie. Satan?).

Jim even said he wasn't sure if Mab still has her soul, suggesting that she could, but maybe not.  Not that it clarifies anything.

Im using the capability to participate in a Soulgaze as the qualitative measure here, and it's specifically stated that Fae cannot. I understand that there is a WOJ theorizing that they might maintain some tiny fragments buried deep enough, but for all practical in-world purposes it's gone. 

And more broadly, while I know there is a lot of philosophic wrangling (both in world and around here) about the nature of the Soul, about it's implications and functions and whatnot.  But there is No Doubt Whatsoever that there is a Soul and who does and does not have one, because beings like Bob can just look at you and directly SEE it (to the point of identifying where individual chunks came from).  This is not an abstract, this is verifiable fact to the character. 

[Rasins]

Im using the capability to participate in a Soulgaze as the qualitative measure here, and it's specifically stated that Fae cannot. I understand that there is a WOJ theorizing that they might maintain some tiny fragments buried deep enough, but for all practical in-world purposes it's gone. 

And more broadly, while I know there is a lot of philosophic wrangling (both in world and around here) about the nature of the Soul, about it's implications and functions and whatnot.  But there is No Doubt Whatsoever that there is a Soul and who does and does not have one, because beings like Bob can just look at you and directly SEE it (to the point of identifying where individual chunks came from).  This is not an abstract, this is verifiable fact to the character. 

Well, now .... I agree that it exists.  That's what GS was all about.

Now about fae ... I believe they do still have their entire soul.  I believe that it's nature has changed once they become Fae, but they still have it, and since it is so different from that of a Human Mortal wizard, they just can't match up enough to have a "soul gaze", if that is even a good name for it.

[Quantus]

Well, now .... I agree that it exists.  That's what GS was all about.

Now about fae ... I believe they do still have their entire soul.  I believe that it's nature has changed once they become Fae, but they still have it, and since it is so different from that of a Human Mortal wizard, they just can't match up enough to have a "soul gaze", if that is even a good name for it.

Sorry, I just cant buy that.  If that were the case, Being like Bob would be able to directly See it, and so there would be no question or misunderstanding with regards to the popular Knowledge.  The Soul is not a hypothetical, it's a verifiable fact. 

[jonas]

Of course, they couldn't choose otherwise. No soul no change.

Im using the capability to participate in a Soulgaze as the qualitative measure here, and it's specifically stated that Fae cannot.

At the same time Harry goes out of his way not to look certain Fae in the eye. Vaderrung is fae as Santa but he has his to be 'mortal' doesn't he? He actually mentions not wanting to trade a soul gaze with Mab at one point. A lot of the things 'stated' early on are starting to look iffy in places. Not sure quite what to believe there. Possibly the difference is specifically, faeborn/changed vs holder of a fae mantle, where-in the mantle itself lacks soul and the bearer acts as the fuel/changer/decider within the spirit of the mantle. Like Harry co-opting the WK mantle for his own purposes via logical bullying. (He's one of ours via Butter, that it understood) Makes me wonder, is Mab cold and logical, or is the person who calls herself Mab cold and logical?

[Dina]

Im using the capability to participate in a Soulgaze as the qualitative measure here, and it's specifically stated that Fae cannot. I understand that there is a WOJ theorizing that they might maintain some tiny fragments buried deep enough, but for all practical in-world purposes it's gone. 

And more broadly, while I know there is a lot of philosophic wrangling (both in world and around here) about the nature of the Soul, about it's implications and functions and whatnot.  But there is No Doubt Whatsoever that there is a Soul and who does and does not have one, because beings like Bob can just look at you and directly SEE it (to the point of identifying where individual chunks came from).  This is not an abstract, this is verifiable fact to the character.

I agree with you and that is for me one of the biggest problems with a Lady.

[Quantus]

I agree with you and that is for me one of the biggest problems with a Lady.

I did at first, mostly because I was picturing it like a Spirit leaving the Body, something that just goes poof and is gone.  But it sounds like it's not an instantaneous thing, even though it's still inevitable. One theory I saw around here that I really liked was the simple mechanism that the Mantle/Mortality prevents the Host from regenerating their own Soul naturally as people normally do, and since bit of soul go out with every spell and hug and whatnot, the Immortal is now suffering permanent if slow rate of Soul-loss, and without lots and lots of supplemental Soul from outside sources like hugs from mortal Loved Ones (relatively rare in Sidhe society, methinks), the Immortal's remaining Mortal Soul will eventually leak away. 


Oh Crap, this isnt in the spoilers section *Edits for vagueness*  I have to keep an eye on where I am 

[Dina]

Yes, that is why I was vague myself. I didn't see the previous version of your post, but I like what you wrote.

[Rasins]

Sorry, I just cant buy that.  If that were the case, Being like Bob would be able to directly See it, and so there would be no question or misunderstanding with regards to the popular Knowledge.  The Soul is not a hypothetical, it's a verifiable fact.

I'm trying to recall a time when Bob was asked to see someone's soul?  He talks about Harry's, but I'm not recalling him every even mentioning anyone else's soul.

[jonas]

I'm trying to recall a time when Bob was asked to see someone's soul?  He talks about Harry's, but I'm not recalling him every even mentioning anyone else's soul.

Ermm they might be equating His inability to pick up the 'faith'length as a lack of soul and making leaps from there. But that's a good question, because Bob specifically see's Harry's soul after the soulfire incident.

[Quantus]

I'm trying to recall a time when Bob was asked to see someone's soul?  He talks about Harry's, but I'm not recalling him every even mentioning anyone else's soul.

Nobody has been, like, brought before him for an examination yet, at least that I recall.  But he did spot chunks of Susan and Murphy in him, specifically.

"Whoa, wait a minute. Part of my soul is gone?"

Bob sighed. "People get all excited when you use that word. The part of you that is more than merely physical, yes. You can call it whatever you want. There's some missing, and it's nothing to panic over."

"Part of my soul is gone and I'm not supposed to be worried about that?" I demanded.

"Happens all the time," Bob said. "You shared a bunch of yours with Susan, and she with you. It's what protected you from Lara Raith. You and Murphy swapped some pretty recently, looks like—you must have gotten a hug or something. Honestly, Harry, you really ought to bang her and get it over wi—"

I reached under the worktable, drew out a claw hammer, and gave Bob a pointed look.

"Um, right," he said. "Back to business. Uh, your soul. You give away pieces of yourself all the time. Everyone does. Some of it goes out with your magic, too. It grows back. Relax, boss."

Are you thinking his perception is somehow restricted to just his Owner, or to Harry specifically?

[Rasins]

Nobody has been, like, brought before him for an examination yet, at least that I recall.  But he did spot chunks of Susan and Murphy in him, specifically.

Are you thinking his perception is somehow restricted to just his Owner, or to Harry specifically?

Not at all.  I'm just not willing to assume that he can't see ... say, Mab's soul, if he's ever exposed to her again.

The only souls we've heard him talk about were those you've listed below.

Lack of mention is not proof that it doesn't exist.

[Quantus]

Not at all.  I'm just not willing to assume that he can't see ... say, Mab's soul, if he's ever exposed to her again.

The only souls we've heard him talk about were those you've listed below.

Lack of mention is not proof that it doesn't exist.

Oh, Id assume he would be able to see a soul in her if she still had one. A functioning soul, mind you; I can totally believe that he's capable of missing trace fragments if such remain.  All perceptions have limits, surely.  But that's all beside the point.  People and beings who have the objective means to verify is say that Fae do not have Souls. Just because this point doesnt get belabored all the time doesnt invalidate it as a known Fact.  Lack of mention is not proof it doesnt exists